Wfc Finances

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by We hate 48, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    I was missing an apostrophe, yes although it seems so too was @Steve Leo Beleck (the post I said was word for word what I said)...
    Fair in some ways. I didn’t realise that the base rate was so high these days (I don’t live in the U.K.). That said, my point was that to give a rate of 4% over their cost of capital, Close Brothers must be quite confident in the state of our finances and not of the mind that we are on the precipice of implosion.

    As I’ve noted in the past, West Brom have borrowed large sums at 10%+ base rate. I think if/when our interest shoots to that sort of level, we’ll know we’re in trouble.

    I find this loan more odd than anything else. What on earth are these assets?
  2. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Just to add. Not sure that the cost of lending is the BoE base rate. It looks like this is just a lease of equipment in which case the cost of lending may be transportation etc of the goods.
  3. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Have to say, this isn't the easiest document to understand for us lay people. Can some financial bod summarise it?
  4. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Also Edwards.
  5. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    Macquarie bank has a Debenture (as well as fixed charges over transfer fees receivable and parachute money) dated 2021 which gives it a floating charge over all other assets. Floating means the borrower can deal in those assets freely ,which means those assets-typically plant and machinery or vehicles dont have any real value to the lender as they can be moved around.

    So to get round this a lender would create a chattel mortgage which can mean that the asset either transfers to the ownership of the lender but still can be "used" by the borrower or the lender has its name affixed to the assets in question so its obvious that the asset is not freely owned by the borrower and so creates a better form of security.

    The last accounts showed the club had c£5m of plant & machinery-the assets now charged to Close Brothers (who specialise in this type of asset financing) are detailed in the charge doc.

    Frankly it looks like a hotch potch of assets that have maybe a few £m of value-looks pretty desperate stuff to me but then it is the year end this month so maybe this is why. Still more debt though.
    Doc0075, UEA_Hornet, RMT79 and 3 others like this.
  6. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    I'm no accountant, but is there a limit a club can amass in debt before the EFL steps in and demands a reduction before Administrators are brought in? I only bring this up as Bury, Derby and Bolton all had the EFL investigating their finances before they took that step with them (points deduction is a well known step, as is a possible cease and desist in player trading), I wonder how close we are to this limit?
  7. Loyalhornet

    Loyalhornet Reservist

    I don't know that much about EFL regulations and I could be wrong, but I doubt it. That would be counterprodutive.

    Debt only becomes an issue when he club can no longer afford to service it on a cash basis. The club also has a guarantee from the ultimate parent (Diversify Sport investment SArl-Gino's Company). I have no idea of the capital in that Company, but as at the date the accounts were signed (31t March 2023) , there would have to have been enough to cover the following 12 months of debt, otherwise the accounts would not have got a clean audit opinion.

    So in other words, the EFL putting the club in administration wouldn't make sense when the debt is currently covered by the guarantee for the foreseeable future. I imagine in Bury/Derby/Bolton's case they were close to not being able to pay off certain liabilities.
  8. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    The EFL don't put clubs into administration anyway. At least directly. The issue with the clubs mentioned from the EFL perspective is the competency / acceptability of new owners. They'll block a takeover if they have reason to.
  9. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    That Maguire chap is openly poking fun at Dear Leader for taking out a mortgage to buy a new boiler.

    Meanwhile Wendover is crediting the club for using sale and leaseback (which I don’t think it is anyway) because it’s tax efficient. Even though this loan is tiny and we have £90 million of brought forwards tax losses.

    As much missed @Jon G would say - simply good husbandry!
  10. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Didn't you (rightly) poke holes at Maguire's previous analysis that our situation wasn't that bad? Are you trumpeting and trusting his findings now that it's painting the ownership in a bad light? Surely not!
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  11. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    Watford FC do not own the the Training facility.
    It cannot be considered an asset, Watford only have a lease.
  12. MarlonsCellMate

    MarlonsCellMate Reservist

    It would be a ROU (right of use) asset under IFRS16. And you can still spend on leasehold improvements in any case.
    Knight GT and bracknellhornet like this.
  13. bracknellhornet

    bracknellhornet Reservist

    Spot on, and the club signed a 30 year lease not too long ago, so it it will be a large asset as well!
  14. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    Does ROU give you the ability to write of any debt due to money spent on an asset that you do not own or give any Tax exemptions?
  15. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    Ok, l understand that.
    We still don't own it, so the lease is the asset not the facility. As with music copyright?
  16. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    Have this years accounts been filed yet? I couldnt find the finances thread, late night and not woken up properly yet.
  17. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    Have this years accounts been filed yet? I have noticed a few clubs are popping up in the news regards their finances, Neverton screwed, Brighton massive profits etc.
  18. hjw

    hjw Reservist

    Yes, we released them a few months ago. They were not great, but nowhere near as bad as many I've seen this week
  19. hjw

    hjw Reservist

  20. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

  21. reids

    reids First Team

    Could be worse, Everton have £580m of external debt and £450m owned to the owner. Would surprise me if the club exists in its current form in 2 years time.
    PowerJugs likes this.
  22. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    And a dodgy set of new owners coming in.
  23. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    The financial year that runs April/April really only applies to individuals, companies/football clubs financial years will run completely differently and in a lot of cases be a year from the date of incorporation. In any case companies have to file their accounts within 6 months of their FY ending, so accounts coming out now, will relate to financial years that ended up to 6 months ago.

    TL;DR, April has no real bearing on when different football clubs release their accounts and there will be a drip feed of them throughout the year.
  24. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    The deadline for regular UK companies is actually 9 months and can be extended by 3 months for significant overseas influences on application. Maybe there is a shorter period required for footy clubs ? Would make sense given the funding rules etc.
    a19tgg likes this.
  25. reids

    reids First Team

    Yup, not convinced the takeover will go through but they're pretty ****ed either way. Apparently the new owners are borrowing money at a 50% (!) interest rate, if you're supposedly a massive company and the best interest rate you can get is 50% doesn't bode well for the future....If the takeover doesn't go through Everton will have to repay the £150m+ the potential new owners have put into the club to keep it going. Either way they're in a big big pile of trouble.
    CYHSYF and UEA_Hornet like this.
  26. BeersThen

    BeersThen Reservist

    lutonh8a, Knight GT and K9 Hornet like this.
  27. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse First Team Captain

    Sounds eerily similar to the financial mismanagement that saw Leeds go tumbling down the league.
    reids likes this.
  28. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Lovely, only as long as they stay up this season !!
  29. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    You're not allowed to say that on here - the only club who are a relevant comparison for us are Brighton.
    Cunning Plan likes this.
  30. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    I would have a lot more sympathy with them if their fans hadn't been such patronising ***** over Richarlison, Doucoure and Silva. Lots of comments about how much money and ambition they had and that we should just know our place, roll over and let them tickle our tummy. Would quite enjoy them having a complete financial meltdown.
    CYHSYF, lutonh8a, Doc0075 and 10 others like this.
  31. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    everything about that club is rotten. But I have a 40 year memory
    CYHSYF, vecro, Doc0075 and 4 others like this.
  32. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    The other funny thing about that was, of course, that they loved screeching about the Doucoure transfer at the time, as you say, including one tweet I saw claiming they had 'patted us on the head' and taken him, when the reality was that it took us literally being relegated for such a massive, legendary, appealing club as them to be able to prize him from little old Watford, and they still had to pay £25m for the privilege, despite that aforementioned relegation. I'm not sure that all adds up to saying quite what the Evertonian Twitter trog thought it was about his club.
    wfc4ever likes this.
  33. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    Ever since their little old fan (looked 60, probably more like 30), ran on the pitch in the 1966 cup final v Sheffield Weds and kept going when the policeman grabbed him, but only stood there holding his jacket have they felt entitled thinking they can get away with anything.

    With Ball, Harvey and Kendall they had one of the greatest if not the greatest midfields of the late 60s but that’s all history now their future looks more Sheffield Wednesdayish now than the Premier League and winning at Wembley!
  34. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    We had our very own Toffeblue who regularly posted on here, they were ok as rival fans go but always had a very condescending tone, and maintained the stance that money spent = league position. Well here they are, having spent a ridiculous amount of money only to be circling the drain season in season out.
    lutonh8a, PowerJugs and wfc4ever like this.
  35. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    God I hope Everton stay up

Share This Page