Extract from Code: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/watford/5389362.stm Watford's Vicarage Road stadium is to undergo a £32m facelift after the club revealed plans to redevelop the ground. The Hornets' home since 1922 will have its capacity boosted to between 22,000 and 23,000, with a new East Stand the centrepiece of the expansion. Watford chairman Graham Simpson said: "This is a momentous announcement in the history of Watford Football Club. "I have always said in order for this club to survive long term we need a sustainable business." He added: "Vicarage Road has been our home since 1922 and we love it here in the heart of the community." There was always the temptation to relocate but we are a town-centre club at the heart of our community The Hornets hope to gain planning permission for the project next March, which would allow them to begin work as soon as the season ends in May. Watford chief executive Mark Ashton admitted the club had considered moving from their home of 84 years. "There was always the temptation to relocate," said Ashton. "But we are a town-centre club at the heart of our community. "The problem with many football clubs is that they tend to build new stadia which are isolated from the towns and cities they serve." Watford plan to fund the project in partnership with housing association Origin. They are to contribute £19m to the initiative, which will see 180 homes built near Vicarage Road for doctors and nurses who work at the nearby Watford General Hospital. Watford Football Club are to contribute £13.5m, of which Origin will guarantee a further £4m, with £3m coming from the revenue Watford expect to make during the next three years. Watford plan to raise the remaining £6.5m through long-term bank loans or raising funds through the sale of shares.
...and the chances of barcelona accepting, and then ronaldinho wanting to come to us, are slim methinks
I reckon we should have increased our stadium to at least 27-28,000. The redevelopments isn't going to bring the cash in, but attendences do!
Agreed but I think the plan is sensible at the moment. If after a couple of years we are stable in the Prem and regularly getting packed out then there is the ability to put an extra tier on the Rookery and the Vicarage Rd ends. Think the Occupation road side is restricted due to planning regs and proximity to housing and the Rouse is just too quiet.
Firstly, why do you say it isn't going to bring money in? I'd be very interested to hear how you reason this when the club have obviously employed consultants and the like for this very reason. Secondly, say we did increase the capacity to 28,000 - where are all the extra fans going to come from? If you say "steadily over the next decade" then why not wait a decade to build up further? If you say "they're waiting to come through the gates now" I'd suggest you section yourself immediately... None of that is meant as a dig GG, I'm just itching to debate this very subject with someone who doesn't think the club's ambition is obvious.
no offence taken. I can see where your coming from. Yes, they must have thoughtout aspects such as bringing money in. Also seeing the fact that we only managed to scrap 30,000 for the play-off final that with 28,000 we WOULD have empty seats. However I think we've got the opportuinty to gradually increase the capacity to at least 25,000 within a couple of years. Why? If we're ambitious and are able to stay in the premiership next season we will without a doubt have more season ticket holders, increase are club awareness accross further markets. Not to mention we as a club will be wealthier and more able to compete in the transfer market. We had a waiting list of 700 (not a lot I know!), but if our prices were frozen again. having the cheapest season tickets in the premier league could tempt those armchair fans to purchase a season ticket. Its also not just attracting more of our home support. If we struggle to get over say...22,000 then increase the tickets available for away fans. Clubs like Arsenal, Man utd, Tottenham, Liverpool...infact most teams will always sell out their allocation. I honestly think that there are 5/6 teams in the premiership right now that we would sell out 28,000 easily.
The problem with planning though is that all the decisions have to be made well in advance. What if we go down this season? The planning application goes in very early next year I believe, including plans for the East Stand development in 2yrs time. I think anyone would agree that we'd have zero chance of getting anywhere near 28,000 into the ground playing in the Championship. I personally think the current estimate of around 24,000 seats is gonna prove way too high if we get relegated and even if we stay up it'd be at least 5yrs to build up the required numbers to fill it. People simply aren't going to materialise out of thin air overnight, particularly those of the type who are committed enough to attend regularly. I also don't think we should be making allowances for extra seating on the proviso that away sides will fill it if we don't - surely it's better to have a full ground and a small number of away fans, than a full ground with a large percentage of away fans? I also don't expect ST prices to be frozen for a second - expect a sky high rise this year regardless of league status to offset the price freeze last summer.
Thats the problem if we go down we'd probably go down to around 14/15000. Then again its a question of ambition. Smithy said in his article on the BBC that Watford are working in the background everyday to establish themselves as a premiership club. A 28,000 all seater is without a doubt a premiership stadium. I agree that we only want to give the away allocation to a small minority, but you could have empty seats for the smaller games e.g. if it was this season sheffield on tues wouldn't be a sell out. If we did give the away fans more tickets it wouldn't be a huge amount.
Don't get my wrong, I agree with that core principle. But there's no point in building things that aren't going to be used any time soon, seats included. If we can only average 14,000 in the league below, take around 30,000 to a huge final and only sell out one Premiership home match with a capacity of 19,000 I just don't see where this need for 28,000ish comes from. I say this particularly when you consider that the cost of adding more seats over the 24,000 already decided upon becomes disproportiately higher due to the surrounding land and the lie of the ground. There is, however, nothing to stop the club investigating that route when the need arises, be it in 2yrs, 5yrs or 20yrs.
I agree with what your saying. The one thing I don't like about the whole stadium development is that its costing £30m and gaining only 3/4000 seats, and by the time its complete we could be an established premiership club and look to increase the capacity again.
The total project cost is £32m. That includes all the affordable housing being built on site. The whole redevelopment is actually costing WFC £7m, the affordable housing company are paying £25m! [Source: Mark Ashton at the Fans Forum] I also don't feel a gain of 5000 seats (currently 19000, proposed 24000) is insignificant. I think you have to look wider than the capacity increasing: we'll have new changing rooms, executive facilities, 2 new bars, a vastly expanded Rookery concourse, a new stand AND scampi on matchdays (I hope...) I personally don't see that as unambitious!
Hi UEA, My first question is: Other than The Red Lion, where is the 365 income going to come from? I was under the impression that the cost of the redevelopment to the club came to £13.5Mil? For that kind of significant investment I would expect more than a couple of bars for generating income - that kind of plan would certainly get kicked out at most companies. In regard to the stadium not selling out at the moment, I can tell you exactly why. It is a combination of things, 2 of which are: People cannot plan to go to the football if they cannot guarentee getting tickets and that when tickets do become available they are the worst seats in the ground - i.e. in the bottom or top corners. I know a number of people who are not going this season because they don't want to spend £30 odd for a poor seat (not that they are that poor). You can also see that £50 for one adult and 1 child is somewhat prohibitive. If we increased the capacity to 26K-28K the above would be less of an issue and we would get 24K supporters for general Premiership games and sell out for the big clubs. We could also increase the capacity for away supporters. The cost of increasing the size of the East Stand by 2K would be no more than £2Mil, probably a lot less. 2K x £30 = £60K. The extra seats would (in the worst case in the Premiership) pay for themselves in 5 years. For an ambitious club that would be a huge gain. If we were to be relegated and not return to The Prem, then we would possibly go over the 24K mark a couple of times a season for cup games and big club visits meaning that the seats would get used and would eventually pay for themselves. It depends on how ambitious the club actually is. I've got to go to the Sheff. Utd. game now, but I'll bang on some more when I get back. Enjoy the game!
Scalexman, there's one thing about everything you've written above. It assumes that we will definitely be in the Premiership over the next 5 seasons. You're probably right about why we don't fill the ground every game at the moment, though if my memory serves me right we didn't the last time round in the Premiership either. However, none of that answers why we only got 14k average through the gates in the Championship. Last season there were plenty of seats available in every stand, you could sit pretty much where you wanted (certainly not like this season where only the crummy seats are left) and the prices weren't prohibitive. Yet people stayed away. Plus even if there are all these people who simply don't come because of 'organisational' issues, are there 5,000 of them? I don't think so. Lets face it, there might be 1,000 people tops who can't get to the Vic even if they wanted to at the moment. So a new capacity of 24,000 will more than cater for these people. As for the 365 income, I really don't know. I don't think that bothers the average football fan - the club brought it up and it's for the club to answer for if it's so important. To my mind, the main issues are having the right number of seats and a decent level of comfort in the ground for the fans. That's how a football club reflects it's ambition. How the club want to earn money at other times is up to them (it's no less worthy a cause, simply not to my mind a real sign of ambition). As for the costings, I'm only going on what I wrote down while listening to the Fans Forum. Mark Ashton stated that the project cost was £32m, with Origin (the housing company) contributing £25m of that. Whether he got his figures wrong I don't know but that's what I heard. I've not the time now to go back over the original press release but I might well do that at some point. Anyway, I look forward to your reply!
Hi again UEA, my answers are inline in two posts below: Scalexman, there's one thing about everything you've written above. It assumes that we will definitely be in the Premiership over the next 5 seasons. You're probably right about why we don't fill the ground every game at the moment, though if my memory serves me right we didn't the last time round in the Premiership either. However, none of that answers why we only got 14k average through the gates in the Championship. Last season there were plenty of seats available in every stand, you could sit pretty much where you wanted (certainly not like this season where only the crummy seats are left) and the prices weren't prohibitive. Yet people stayed away. You are not quite right about my assumption. I carefully stated that if the board are as ambitious as they say they are, then they should be planning facilities for sustained Premiership status. As that would be the goal of any club, they should be planning their infrastructure for that eventuality. Even if we were to go down this season, the stated ambition is to get back there ASAP and the organisation that the club put in place should be there to reflect that. I agree that we would hardly ever sell out in The Championship – but we would a couple of times a season. The costs for building a bigger stand in my previous post were greatly over-estimated (purposely). I said an extra £2Mil, which is, of course, way over the top. I would be VERY surprised if the additional cost would be any more than an extra £600K. If we were to re-visit the construction to extend the currently planned stand the costs would be way in excess of that figure. The thing about extra seats is that once they are in, they don’t cost any extra to maintain. It is far easier and cheaper to build a bigger stand on day 1 than to build a smaller one, then extend. Plus even if there are all these people who simply don't come because of 'organisational' issues, are there 5,000 of them? I don't think so. Lets face it, there might be 1,000 people tops who can't get to the Vic even if they wanted to at the moment. So a new capacity of 24,000 will more than cater for these people. Yes, I will (partly) concede on this one. I live in Reading, so don’t actually know too many Watford supporters, but of the ones that I do, I know 4 season ex-ticket holders from the last 3 years who no longer come due to the available seating. In addition I know at least 6 others who would attend games fairly regularly if they thought they could get a fairly decent seat for a reasonable price (they do still attend a few games). Only one of these people was in the 700 who applied for, and failed to get, a season ticket. I do agree, however, that there are not going to be 5,000 similar cases. This is an area where the club, and more specifically Mark Ashdon, have to prove their worth. There are numerous issues that can find resolutions through better marketing strategies and planning. One that I can see right away (and that can only be done if we have increased capacity) is reserved seating, where a price can be paid, *plucks figure from the air* say, £100. where a seat next to a ST holder can be reserved until 4 days before the game to allow a friend to buy the seat at a slightly reduced price. In my case this seat would always be taken, but not always by the same person (there, the attendance figures are up be 1 already! ) We should also take away fans into account. This season there have been a number of clubs who have sold out their allocation in a couple of days and who could easily have doubled the sales (this is even the case for some Championship clubs). (continued in next post)
(cont.) As for the 365 income, I really don't know. I don't think that bothers the average football fan - the club brought it up and it's for the club to answer for if it's so important. To my mind, the main issues are having the right number of seats and a decent level of comfort in the ground for the fans. That's how a football club reflects it's ambition. How the club want to earn money at other times is up to them (it's no less worthy a cause, simply not to my mind a real sign of ambition). I don’t know if this does bother the average supporter and it certainly has nothing to do with showing ambition, but I think in modern times that it should be important to anyone who cares about the continued existence of Watford FC. I am concerned for the long term future of the club, as should the board be. They have clearly stated on numerous occasions that they will be creating 365 income. They also said that it is vital to the club and that the plans in place provide this. It seems clear to me that this is not the case in the current plan. I have huge concerns that the housing development is going to be a massive cross to bear for the club for the next 100 years or more (I kid you not). For the sake of £4Mil is it worth it? Then factor in that the board are spending the money on bars and toilets that will need refurbishing within 10 years at the most and you can begin to see the weakness in the business model. The bars certainly will not be a success on any days other than matchdays. Remember that even when we only had one bar for matchdays – Harrys – the club didn’t see it as a viable concern. So what makes them think the two bars is going to be better? To my eyes this is bad planning to the extreme. You are absolutely right that the right number of seats and a level of comfort are important, however, the club need to have the income to sustain those facilities. The current plan shows no scope for doing this. As for the costings, I'm only going on what I wrote down while listening to the Fans Forum. Mark Ashton stated that the project cost was £32m, with Origin (the housing company) contributing £25m of that. Whether he got his figures wrong I don't know but that's what I heard. I've not the time now to go back over the original press release but I might well do that at some point. Me too. I’ve got the announcement press conference saved on my hard drive and will listen again when I have the time! I can remember some of the figures, and in particular, one alarming piece of ‘business BS’ that said about the ‘prudent use of loans’ – i.e. more debt and little return on the investment. Always a pleasure sparring with you, I’m glad we’ve both made it over to the new forum! Cheers mate.
PLASTIC MIRRORS, DECKING, GREY PAINT. HOWEVER IN THE NEW ROUS ENCLOSURE THE LAVS WILL BE MADE OF GOLD.
