No one is suggesting that the hostages should be given up on or that taking them was not utterly reprehensible. But it is reasonable for a pause to consider that the current actions have not freed many of them and that Israel doesn’t have the right to kill endlessly in their name. You seem to come very close to believing that it does. That’s setting aside the much wider contextual issues that inevitably need to be considered for a lasting peace.
Will the attack on the World Central Kitchen staff, which killed three British aid workers be a turning point in Western support? The PM, Foreign Secretary and Leader of the Opposition have been forthright in their condemnation. As well they might be. There appears to be no explaining away attacks on three vehicles spread out over a mile and a half, in a ‘deconflicted’ zone, who have relayed their movements to the IDF. The survivors of the first attack were apparently then attacked in another vehicle they got into. Unless other information emerges, the conclusion that they were taken out deliberately is hard to avoid. The IDF appeared contrite, Netanyahu less so. **** happens appeared to be his conclusion. This is the grim calculus of war. Hospitals repair the wounded, including fighters. They are deliberately targeted by most militaries for this reason. Food aid sustains the population, including fighters and those fighters may kill your fighters. Food is therefore a target. As a consequence of this attack, ships carrying 240tons of food aid have been turned around.
Regardless of whether people believe the Israeli response is proportionate or not, there appears to be some real issues with some members of the IDF. There has been too many "mistakes", including shooting their own hostages, for them all to be brushed aside as "the fog of war". And the problem, imho, is that there appears to be no consequences for those that carry out these "mistakes". In any military organisation you have "bad apples" (or psychopaths!), God knows the British army have had a few. But the IDF hierarchy and Israeli government seem to be totally unwilling to weed them out from the IDF when these incidents happen. From Israel's point of view, it is counter productive. If they had kept their "operation" as clean as possible, and transparently investigated any genuine mistakes, then they wouldn't be losing internal support now.
One of the many bits of military jetsam and flotsam that passed through Vilnius during my time there was a contingent from the Irish Army who were deflating/training with the Lithuanian Army. I say 'deflating' as they were just returning from a tour of duty with UNIFIL on the Israeli/Lebanese border (they've been there for over 44 years). They were very cagey, but common threads amongst their conversations were that as a neutral 'non-militaristic' nation they were politically palatable to the various factions/governments fighting there and they had a loathing of the IDF. I could never work out why - until I mentioned it to an Irish (politico) friend of mine. She said when you look at the published casualty figures those soldiers who died over there due to accident, suicide or murdered by the Arab militias account for half the figures - the rest have been 'offed' by the IDF. Ireland has complained to the UN and Israeli government and has been repeatably reminded that they're peacekeepers in a 'war-zone' - the Irish will trade fire with the militias but they're under strict orders not to shoot into Israel. She was told, by means of explanation, that some of the IDF conscripts are descended from families who feel betrayed by Ireland's refusal to take in more refugees from the kindertransporten during "The Emergency"...
No other war in the history of all wars was under such an international microscope, no other army had to behave so polite with their worst enemies, no other nation had to feed the criminals who murdered and kidnapped their own, no other military men were so indulgent with the savages who raped their women and burned alive their children and parents. No other country was ever more hated and contested for defending itself, no other people, from any country in the world, were more harrased, insulted, punished, sanctioned, lied about, dehumanized by online supporters of terrorism and attacked and bombarded daily by bloody sick terrorists. No other country had more UN resolutions, no other country under attack by terrorists of all kinds and from all around its borders was ever named a “terrorist state” when defending its citizens. No other set of military proofs about the terrorists’s war crimes was more ignored by WHO and other official bodies. No other really occupied territory- like the North of Cyprus, by Turkey or Crimea, by Russia…- ever flooded the streets or campuses with such an absurd and lame “activism” for a country they never ever care before October. No other women, from any nation or religion were more doubted or unsupported like the Israeli women. No other hostages, from any terrorist attack, were more ignored by the public opinion, no other BABY in the world was kidnapped for 6 month now, in which time no UNICEF, no RED CROSS, no AMNESTY…, nobody was even tweeted once about his release…. Welcome to Antisemitism, the new Season. Produced by Iran and the radical islamists from all over the world.
While much of what you write is true, as a whole, this is feels like the forum equivalent of putting your hands over your ears. Not every criticism is antisemitism and the relegation of the hostages plight is in great part due to the wholesale slaughter unleashed subsequently, pretty much what Hamas would have hoped for. It’s simply not true that everyone currently criticising Israel hates it for defending itself. Israel has had the moral and practical support of the US, UK and the EU. It’s absurd not to recognise that those democracies will have limits, which include killing their citizens or a body count that is politically unsustainable. Those limits are there irrespective of their own hypocrisys. I don’t know what the solution is to this awful situation, but I cannot feel the continuing, current campaign is it.
the solution was for the UN and the world to denounce Hamas on Oct 8th, demand immediate release of the hostages, recognise the Gazan people had been f£&&ed over by their leadership and work with the Qatar govt to try Hamas leadership for war crimes. instead the world mostly stayed silent…and the rest is as predicted on the early pages of this thread I have no idea what the solution anymore is.
I don’t agree that the World stayed silent and just recently the UN reported on the sexual violence suffered by women during the attacks. But the hostages should have stayed front and centre of World attention. Sadly, events moved on very quickly. There is an apparent lack of empathy towards their plight from some, which saddens me, but that’s what they also say about the people they care about.
I understand the grief and deep-rooted anger felt after October 7th. It is deplorable that an organisation such as Hamas could benefit from feelings of hopelessness to such an extent that they could gain power and then abuse their position in the way they have. We have now reached such an impasse with positions (understandably) increasingly entrenched, I wonder what an ‘acceptable’ outcome could even look like. It is also important to emphasise that criticism of the actions of the Israeli government & military is NOT tantamount to anti-Semitism and suggesting it always is, is deeply unhelpful. 2 questions occur to me: 1. How many deaths are acceptable to achieve the ends of ‘recovering the hostages’ and ‘eliminating Hamas’? 2. Should Hamas announce that ‘all the hostages are dead’, what should the next steps be from Israel’s perspective? Let us not lose sight of the fact that the ‘deaths’ referenced in question 1 will involve many innocents, including foreign aid workers. Intractable is probably not a sufficiently strong term.
im not sure I have ever said that criticism of the Israeli govt is AS…especially as I’m very vocal in my criticism of the Netanyahu government in local politics but if you reread my post above it is very difficult to say that all of those points are not driven by many from pure AS hidden behind a masquerade of anti Zionism. To be clear I don’t accuse anybody on this forum of that as for your questions, I have no idea. On the first page of this thread it was predicted that Israel’s response would be greater than ever seen before. It had to be. It would cause more deaths than ever before due to the need to dismantle Hamas infrastructure which is predominantly based in hospitals, schools, densely populated areas etc. it was also predicted that it would become a wider war across the region none of this needed to happen. Oct 7th was the cause and, if people took to the streets to call for an end to Hamas in the same way that people have called for an end to the war, if the Qatari govt had imprisoned the Hamas leadership and there was a call for change in Gaza and the hostages to be released then there would have been no incursion, no deaths and we would be in a place to give the Arabs living in Gaza a better life under a government that cares. Sadly this was not to be…
Why would this make a difference? It's had no impact on stopping the war, so why would it have any impact on Hamas? I don't get the impression they especially care about global public opinion...
because Israel’s issue is not with the ordinary Arab living in Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Egypt or anywhere else. It’s with a terror organisation who has used billions in dollars of aid, not to better their citizens livelihood, but to invest in armoury to be used to destroy Israel and its people (regardless of colour, religion, birthplace). Eradicate Hamas and replace with a government that truly wants a state for its people and wants to invest aid into creating a new Singapore in Gaza and you will get peace with Israel once her safety is secured but instead Hamas leadership can retain all the aid for their own pockets and for weaponry, behead children, rape daughters, torture mothers, kidnap grandmas and nobody takes to the street around the world to demand the leaders of this terror groups replacement. Pressure should have been put on Qatar where they are holding out to imprison them I find it genuinely quite staggering
But people going onto the streets in London, Paris or New York wouldn't, and won't, make a scrap of difference to a terrorist organisation, imo. Perhaps (although I doubt it), protests in the territory it controls and maybe in neighbouring Arab states might have made some difference. As I edited subsequently, I don't think they are looking to court global public opinion. Pro-Ukraine protests have made naff all difference to Putin either, for that matter.
Quite. The notion that a terrorist organisation is going to stop being a terrorist organization just because some crowds demand it seems farfetched to me. These are people who have deliberately decided to operate well outside the confines of human decency. It's along the same lines as some feminists who hate suggestions of self defense classes for women, arguing that it is victim blaming and that (male) rapists shouldn't rape. I don't disagree with the basic notion, but in practical reality rapists aren't going to stop just because you ask nicely. Would be nice if that worked, of course...
Hamas would feel the pressure of global opinion. And Qatar should not have accepted the leaders into their country or immediately tried them for war crimes instead of this people call for the disarming of Israel to take away the ability to defend itself via the Iron Dome leading to total eradication and reward Hamas butchering of 1000+ people by calls for Hamas to lead their own recognised state the worlds gone mad
I think you’re imputing a rationality to the organisation that it seems not to possess. As for Qatar, perhaps.
Tories poking the wound from every angle. Former Tory minister Alan Duncan talks of ‘Pro-Israeli Extremists’ and tries to contextualise the Hamas attacks. Is strongly accused of blaming Israel for them. No doubt high on his list of ‘extremists,’ Suella Braverman, who is not a minister, takes a three-day trip to Israel to boost her personal leadership ambitions show her support and denounces any move to stop selling weapons to Israel. She also swallows hook line and sinker the notion that the attack on World Central Kitchen staff was a ‘tragic accident.’
I did not want to suggest you personally conflate criticism of the Israeli govt with AS which is why my post was not framed as a reply to one of yours; but some people do seem to regularly conflate the two and that is not reasonable. We have already discussed the background to the Hamas takeover of Gaza and there is sufficient evidence to argue that both Palestinian & Israeli negotiators bear culpability for the failure to effect a working solution to the problem more than 20 years ago. For each lunatic anti-Jewish Hamas terrorist one could probably produce an equally lunatic ‘historic land of Israel’ settler who uses government and military support to illegally seize & occupy West Bank land. Palestinian Gazans were duped when they voted for Hamas; how peaceable and conciliatory did many Israelis expect Netanyahu’s extremist coalition to be considering the recorded attitudes of many of those elected to the Knesset? I fully agree with your comments regarding the ‘conflicted’ approach of the Qatari authorities. Question 1. in my original post needs an answer from within Israel, because the way it’s going the only way to prove the final destruction of Hamas is to totally level Gaza and raze everything to the ground. There will be no hostages left alive to rescue.
Is criticism of the Modi government Anti-Hindu? Is criticism of the Erdogan government Anti-Muslim? Is criticism of the Orban government Anti-****? No. (apart from Orban)
well I don’t agree with that at all although I doubt very much that any have a clue about Netanyahu’s local politics But if you go back to message 775 it is hard to believe that AS is not at the core of those who: have a bigger interest in this war then any other around the world Only care about the Arab/Palestinian plight of those living in Gaza and no other surrounding country Drop language like genocide (Gazan population has increased from 250k in 1960 to 2.1m last year), apartheid (2m Arabs live in Israel, 0 Jews live in Gaza), and occupation (Israel moved out of Gaza in 2005 in the hope of creating peace) Excuse one of the most barbaric massacres on Oct 7 or, even worse, denying it happened when there is video proof taken by Hamas terrorists all over the internet quite happy that NONE of the major charities have reached out to contact any of the hostages including the 37 children are happy to take to the streets and cry for the destruction of Israel but stay at home for ALL other disputes want an immediate ceasefire which is understandable but have no interest in the hostages or Israel’s future safety There was a ceasefire on Oct 6th. The blood is on Hamas hands I have no idea what the end game is now. Hamas can’t release many hostages as they are either dead or “lost” in the system. Israel can’t just pull out as their future security cannot be guaranteed. they will never ever work with Hamas ever again. And more and more innocents die
Surely everyone can see that the only thing that is going to make Hamas and Israel end this brutal war is a complete boycott of the Eurovision song contest
Let’s hold on a minute here. This is not an uncommon phenomena. Human beings have, sadly, a limited capacity for concentration let alone compassion. Many simply react to what they see on the news and are upset by that. It’s not necessarily antisemitic (though there are many who definitely are) anymore than the failure of Israel’s supporters to take on every aspect of the Palestinian experience is racist. That’s what humans do. The demand to ‘make it stop’ when confronted with horror is understandable. It’s then for the politicians to get the politics right and find a way to peace and justice.
What a shock… Hamas reject latest ceasefire proposal and confirm they do not know where the remaining women, elderly and child hostages are anybody who thinks this terror group will ever want peace are deluded
Hamas cannot guarantee that they can return the elderly, female and child hostages that Israel want as part of the peace process. Presumably because they are already dead, they don’t know where they are or the fact that Hamas don’t want peace why should they? Post the Oct 7th incursion and the rape, torture and beheadings of innocents their popularity has risen
Presumably most of the hostages are dead by this point? EDIT: Can see you've just mentioned that as a possibility in your response to Moose.
The Hamas demands are the release of their detainees (some of them under 16s and many uncharged) i.e. a complete trade of people. They demand a withdrawal of Israeli forces and free movement between South and North of Gaza. These are tricky issues. Israel may not want to release criminals and terrorists, but it appears to hold too many young people and children without charge. Israel can’t demilitarise and then face rocket attacks, but peace is not possible under occupation and restriction. These are difficult issues and the characterisation that Hamas simply doesn’t want peace is only part of the story.
It isnt antisemitism, jesus christ, to label it so is disgusting. There is anti Jew sentiment from the Muslim community but there seems to be just as much anti Muslim rhetoric coming from Israel and elsewhere. Funny how they are just break off religions from The Abrahamic religion, still fighting after **** knows how many years, bonkers. Hate, fear, violence and believing in a magical sky God that gives you the right to **** over some other people that believe in some other weird ****, ******* apes the lot of them to be honest.
sorry who the F£&k are you to tell me as a Jew what is anti semitism and what isn’t. Would you tell a black person what is racist I’m heavily involved in CST and I know full well what is AS. But thanks for telling me that the things I’m seeing infront of my face isn’t!
I have no idea what CST is. You need to step back and look at the bigger picture friend, most people are anti-zionist not anti-semetic. Being in the eye of the storm you cant see the outside though. Israel overstepped in their response to what happened which was awful and shouldnt have happened much like the USAs response to 9/11. A bigger insult to those that died that day has been the bloodlust shown by Israel which was exactly the response Hamas and Iran wanted. Whole thing has been going on for hundreds of years, both sides are at fault, Briain is at fault for creating Israel where it did and the other nations of the world are at fault for not stepping in and saying enough is enough. I'm no expert on the subject but I know enough to know that fault lies on both sides going back hundreds of years and it just cannot carry on as it is. Whole situation is batshit crazy, no need for it in 2024. Im not defending either side. Its a sad sad situation and its just getting more absurd.
And in one paragraph it demonstrates how little you know about the situation Anybody who says “Britain is at fault for creating Israel where it did” really should be educating themselves. Do me a favour and reread this thread and learn something about this region
