Cogs/clappers/gino Backers Roll Call

Indeed under Pozzo ownership I think we have zero chance given Pozzo wealth. That's why I'm suggesting he get us up (which should be possible) and sells at a pre-agreed price based on prem status to someone who does have the financial clout to establish us. That's what I'd do if I were him. Then buy Charlton if I still wanted a UK presence. Or L****

 

We disagree. That's fine. There are many things we do that are unlike any other club

 

The two wealthiest clubs in the country are owned for the purposes of sports washing, nobody is ever going to buy us for sports washing. Forest are a sleeping giant with a huge fanbase, they make better long term sense for any affluent buyer than Watford regardless of their respective leagues. Even if we did get promoted, this so called affluent buyer would be far better off buying a Derby or a Sunderland if they’re in it for the long haul and have all this cash to burn. Look how it went for the Burnley’s buyers. There isn’t actually a queue of multi billionaires just waiting to buy football clubs, let alone ours. So what might Gino do in the short to medium term?

 

I'm not sure the juxtaposition of 'the benefit to WFC' and 'how GP does things' is totally valid; at least not to GP himself. Maybe he really believes his 'methodology' in fact does (or will) benefit WFC...clearly there are mutiple arguments to be framed against that belief, but if GP sincerely believes it (or has convinced himslf it's true) then that would answer the apparent contradiction between GP's actions and him not wanting to deliberately undermine his own major investment.

 

You're absolutely right that the (almost unprecedented, historically) success of the last decade has bred an entitlement amongst a not insignificant proportion of our fanbase.

I don't think that label necessarily applies to those who have genuine issues with the way the club is run (Bayat, 3 managers a season, lack of communication), but there are certainly those that believe we have a right to be surviving comfortably in the PL/Winning the Championship comfortably, simply because we enjoyed a few years above our natural level.

Your average teenage/early 20s fan has only really supported the club during a period of relative success so I suppose you can see where that entitlement has manifested.

 

Burnley's owners took money out rather than invested.
Could any buyer guarantee that Derby or Sunderland would get to the prem in the next 5 years ? How long did it take Leeds ? Derby crashed and burned. If we are promoted in May and they have the funds and want the prestige of a prem "London" club....come and get us. The value was supposedly £250m or so wasn't it 4 or 5 years ago when Pozzo entertained a minority investor. It's nothing like that today in the champ.

 

For someone to buy Watford and establish us as a PL club they would need extremely deep pockets, and anyone with those deep pockets would be better off buying a bigger club. Even if it took several years to get them promoted the long term benefits would be exponential over buying a club like Watford whose value is purely based on being in the PL and nothing more.

 

That’s fine, happy to leave it at that. (After this post - you know I supposedly love the last word…)

I’m just genuinely surprised - as we generally are at opposite ends over things now and then. But I remember you getting upset a year or two back when people were discussing finances and you were almost offended at people saying you were wrong because you had worked in that area all your life or something? (Feel free to correct me)

Since then I genuinely have thought everything you’ve said is level-headed, even when I don’t agree…but it baffles me when someone who has the stated background of yourself comes across as blinkered in this matter and can’t see the obvious, doesn’t ask the probing questions and is happy to pass them off as mistakes.

(I accept ‘happy’ might not be the right word - but I really did expect - and have expected - more open criticism from you, even if you ultimately want Gino to remain.)

None of this is meant to cause offence - just genuinely trying to set out my basis for probably many of our disagreements!

 

As you have said many times, the tv money in the prem dwarfs the advantage given by gate receipts. How much bigger do you think the potential of a Derby/Ipswich would be over Watford income wise with a wealthy benefactor bankrolling? With the closeness to London to help attract players. We'd be perfect for the mega rich who want to own a London prem club, who aren't mega mega rish enough to buy a chelsea/spurs/arsenal.

 

I've been trying rack my dodgy memory of who our previous owners have been in recentish memory and have come up with:

Elton
Petchey
Ashcroft
Simpson
Russo Salad bros
Bassini
Pozzos

Not sure if I've forgotten any of them but this covers about 50 years.

Elton is really exceptional and we should be really grateful for his tenure but I'm not sure it is realistic to expect him again although we can all dream of an EJ led consortium.

I totally get that there are valid criticisms of the Pozzos (although i personally think there are many valid positive contributions they have made) but are they really worse than some of our other owners? Apart from Elton who would people prefer from that past list or alternatively what are people realistically hoping for as new owners?

 

Bonser was before Elton, early and mid 70s.
Ashcroft/Russo/Simpson weren't too bad for a lower champ side level funding though of course Simpson brought in our least favourite Italian manager and nearly bankrupted us.
Bonser/Petchey/Baz were really terrible owners.

 

Thanks for helping my memory. I remember Ashcroft as a Tory who allegedly did some creative tax stuff in Belize.

 

Yes Ashcroft doesn't seem to be a great guy at all but did not real harm to the club, without investing anything. He is largely credited with getting Baz out of the club and forcing him to sell to the Pozzos as a condition of his bonds/investment.....

 

Why do we have to compare them to past owners who (long shot Elton wishes aside) won’t be near the club again? Surely it better to wonder what a new owner could do compared to the current methods of this owner?

We all know the owners we had before. I don’t really think people repeatedly bringing up Petchey or Bassini really makes the current mistakes more palatable. I lived through those mistakes and have moved on - they’re history. Gino isn’t, so I find it better to wonder what could be in the future.

If Gino was 1-3 years into his tenure, comparisons would be better. As that’s the amount of time most of those owners had.

Gino isn’t as bad as many of them - I agree. But sadly that doesn’t change things in the modern day.

It’s a bit like the crazy argument that Gino-apologists raise (not saying you are one) that those who wish Gino was no longer owner, must come up with names of new billionaire owners before they are allowed to say so. As I always say, the overwhelming majority of us had no idea of the Pozzo’s before they arrived. But if you’d floated the idea of The Pozzo Family buying WFC say, 1 month, before they did - I’m sure there’d be naysayers etc.

‘Who wants to buy this club in its current state?! Bassini has run us into the ground! It’s over…’

Cue The Pozzo’s.

It can happen again.

 

Why do you think the Saudis turned their attention to Derby when the Newcastle deal looked dead. It’s simple economies of scale.

 

I’d take all except Bassini. And maybe Petchey.

 

Did you know Bonser or before your time?

 

Started in 1985. He wasn’t on the list though but hear he was bad.

 

Yes pre-dates me too, just, but yes i heard bad !

 

I haven’t gone bedwetter yet , though I reluctantly accept now that some of them have had a point all along , the appointment and subsequent sacking of Edwards being a real shocker to me and an event I did not foresee.

I fully agree a lot seems wrong with the way the club is being run and it has lost its way . However at this stage I don’t want Gino out. I really enjoyed 2012- 2019 and I know that once he is gone there is little chance we will experience anything like that again.

We will return to being the struggling to mid table championship side we were , maybe flirting with the playoffs ( at best ) . I’m ok with that but if there is a chance of us establishing ourselves in the premier league for some short time I’d prefer that as I may have another 30/40/50 more years of supporting watford and there is plenty of time to support that championship side.

It may be I change no mind if we get relegated to league 1 or it becomes clear the very existence of the club is on severe danger.

 

Simply because they are quantifiable and known as opposed to hypothetical. They provide a benchmark for the kind of people who have owned our club previously over half a century. Looking to history can provide lessons and provide context to the present and the future. It's not really that bizarre a question to pose. I guess one could reasonably argue the profile of owners has changed over time and this would certainly be true for top Premier clubs but not necessarily us.

But anyway you don't have to compare if you don't want to. As per my original post I'd alternatively be curious what are people realistically hoping for as new owners? Not expecting names, but more profiles ie. Oil rich, British small businessmen. I guess oligarchs are out. American business, chinese or whatever.

 

Any person or group with a sense for making decent business decisions and the modest (in footballing terms) bank balance to stand behind those decisions would do me. I don’t think Gino ticks those boxes anymore.

But I also don’t think it’s a game of ‘Guess Who’. It could be a Korean K-Pop mogul who loves London and the English game. It could be Jim Ratcliffe, it could be Red Bull, it could be an American who has made his mint in the legalised cannabis business. Who knows. Brighton have a Jewish-Brit whose initial fortune came through playing poker and look at them…

My point is that there’s no point extensively pouring over ‘who’ could buy Gino out or what profile they may have. You can have that discussion when they clubs publicly up for sale etc - but it shouldn’t stop a broader discussion about how new owners could be better.

My UK property was grim when I moved in - and I’m sure it was grimmer still when the people I bought it from moved in….and so on. I think it’s in great nick now…but I’d bet that if I sell it, whoever buys it thinks it’s not as good as they could make it. But I don’t know who those people are - but if put it up for sale, people I don’t know exist right now would soon emerge. The issue many are saying is that, by equivalence, Gino is living in a house with where he still has dial-up internet, electric blankets and refuses to believe it could be better purely because of the deals his mates give him on the internet and electricity.

I don’t think many, if any, country covers themselves in glory on the world stage by the way - but undoubtedly some are worse than others - so I’d rather look at where their money comes from or what their history is, instead of what passport they have in most cases.

 

I don't think Mr. Pozzo is doing a good job, or has a plan to improve things. Fed up with the merry go round as it's not delivering anything positive.

However, that doesn't mean the next owner would be any better.

Kick Bayat out of our club and stick with a manager for a whole season and I'd be much happier about the current ownership.

 

How many examples do people need though? This clearly isn't going to happen so at what point will people say enough is enough? We can't carry on this way hoping that Pozzo will change because the last few days have made it very clear that he has no intention of doing so.

 

Whatever the issue is, they would need to prove that the comments are incorrect.
Let's wait and see how this all pans out.
There will not be any monetary gain for the posters who have hit the nail on the head.
We already have a secret fan committee. It is extremely unlikely that Andrew French will be granted an audience with Gino.
You throw enough mud at it, eventually some will stick.

 

That's not how the law works.

 

We’re probably never going to win anything.

We’re probably at best, shooting to establish ourselves in the top league for another 5-10 year spell.

Which is fine.

So what’s the point? We used to mean something, even when we weren’t particularly successful. There was a way of doing things. Pointlessly cliche, but we had a soul. Not perfect by any means, but you could look at the club and have a sense of pride in what we were. Even when the team was shyte, at least you felt like there was a shared identity. Yeah, the family stuff made us a bit soft at times, and other fan bases would have demanded more, but there was plenty to could look at and feel something. The community work (which granted, we still continue to do), the welcoming atmosphere, and the young players and coaches being given opportunities. All things that you hold up when kids who supported the big clubs started taking the piss.

I suppose if WFC is just a day out, an excuse to get out of the house on a Saturday, or a means to derive social media content, there’s probably nothing too offensive about what we are now. Which is fine. We all follow the club for different reasons. Honestly, if it wasn’t for this site and the fact it’s become a part of my daily life for far too long, I’m not sure I’d have the stomach to keep up with the club anymore. But I don’t know how anybody who once felt pride in those things that used to set us apart, could look at this mess of a club now and feel any sense of identify worth holding onto.

 

Probably right.

But there's only a limited amount we can do about it.

We certainly can't make sure he sells to someone we regard as better.

 

I understand the argument about league position and relative success (e.g. fa cup final) but ultimately what's the point if our affinity and attachment to the club is being drained due to the way the club is being run?

We support Watford not because we expect trophies and Europe (though we can dream) but because of what the club means to us, the values the club stands for, the legendary managers and players.

Over time the constant turnover of managers and players, the chopping and changing of football styles, the questionable dealings with questionable people erode the reasons why we support this team.

Give me a Watford that stands for something, a Watford that fans can identify with over a team that finishes 11th in premier league.

 

You are literally clueless.

Most of us hate the ownership - but that doesn’t mean we can just crazily throw any accusations around and say that because enough people liked/said it, then there’s no reason for reproach. And it’s certainly not ‘woke’ to say as much. It’s the law.

Seriously, grow up. Despite everything, I really don’t think you’re thick - although you do a great impression - I just think you love to wind people up and have a false sense of when you’ve achieved as much. You also like to spurt out a lot of stuff as if it’s fact or you know about it - despite very little, if any, of it coming true.

‘Or not. Who knows. Let’s wait and see. Could be wrong.’

 

F*ck me. The biggest nail on the head for how I, and suspect many, feel.

Kudos for putting it in a way my brain has been struggling to for days/weeks/months/years.

 

I get the point that you can't speculate about who would specifically buy the club. But i think one can talk broadly about the general profile of an alternative owner and if advocating change I think it's a valid consideration. From the sounds of it your broad owner aspirations are the same as mine in terms of modest wealth, football passion, nationality irrelevant. What I couldn't stand for Watford is a rich state or even worse an overtly unethical state or an individual like an oligarch or similar.

i genuinely don't think I'm suggesting anything should stop a broader discussion about how new owners could be better but if I have then apologies. To be honest if anything I feel at times the opposite sometimes applies on this forum ie. if you suggest that new owners could be worse you get a bit of a grilling or defensiveness if you have an alternative view to a totally negative narrative. This is a slight inkling of a feeling I have and is not directed at you and is not something that particularly offends me as that's the nature of online forums.

Mostly I've enjoyed some interesting debate today so thanks for taking the time to respond to some of my posts.

 

Nicely put and I agree with the sentiment. For me a lot of the pride and connection i felt for the club was irrevocably linked to Elton John and the GT era and was never the same after they left.