'Terrorist attack' in Woolwich

There certainly should not be state faith schools. That is wrong.

 

It needs to be pointed out sometimes. It's one thing to allow everyone their beliefs while we're all safe here in the UK, but don't forget the millions of people who suffer daily around the world at the hands of religion. Yes people ought to have freedom to practice whatever religion they choose within their own home, but that is of no comfort to a young girl about to have her genitals mutilated in the name of religion for example.


One thing that rings out about this case is how he referred to Afghanistan as "our lands" and the women as "our women" despite having not one thing in common with the people of Afghanistan apart from shared religion. Only religion could be used as justification for committing crimes for the sake of people who you have nothing in common. It is worrying the uses of colloquialisms such as "brothers" and "sisters" used within religious communities. Even at my uni the Islamic society has segregated events and events for "brothers" and separate ones for "sisters". Words like these give rise to a shared sense of injustice and motivation to commit crimes for people which you have no thing in common.

 

I know let's spend £40,000 per year on each one keeping them in prison for life. Add in the legal expenses and they might cost the state £50M over a forty or fifty year term. No thanks. Thats a lot of nurses, teachers, medical supplies.

There is no complex terrorist plan here, it's a couple of poorly educated mentally unstable gullible bible sorry koran bashers.

Where did they get the motivation? Online on an extremist site? Al Jazera TV? Abu Hamza or any of the other extremist preachers the EU won't allow the UK to lock up or deport? There are no shortage of choices, none of them remotely difficult to access.

Treat them like the rabid animals they are.

 

Minutes silence at the International on Wednesday at Wembley?

 

Most likely thing is they've been taught the wrong Islam as such.

People like Abu Hamza preach the wrong message, they take it into their own hands. The unique thing about the Quran is that it hasn't been changed since it's first revelation however with groups such as Shiaa's and Murzi's the religion has broken off into 3/4 different tangents, some even further away from Islam than Christianity itself. Like Muhammad not being the last prophet? Some 'Muslims' don't believe that.

Sunni Muslims which were the first around follow the original Quran and I know a lot of people don't even consider certain people Muslim. People like Abu Hamza have spread a religion which tends to capture people in weak times. I.E Marlon King who happened to convert to 'Islam' in jail but because it was due to the influence of Abu Hamza many people and many people within my family and others I know wouldn't even embrace him as a Muslim.

Even though that is the wrong attitude as it down to God at the end of the day to make the judgement but I for one wouldn't embrace Marlon King when his 'hero' is the same guy who orchestrated the Wootton Basset incident.

 

Squibba - I am a member of the armed forces, I have served with muslims, christians, sikhs, jews etc - I really don't care the man's religion and trust them all to do the right thing when needed. I've served in, amongst other places Afghanistan, Iraq and Bosnia (lest not forget the hatred from that war), I've also travelled extensively throughout the middle-east and Africa.

The Muslims that I have met in these have been peaceful, hospitable, welcoming and respectful people - apart from the ones trying to kill me!! What concerns me is the growing undercurrent of radical islam in our own country and the open preaching of hatred about everything british.

And whilst the 'vast majority of UK muslims' are peaceful and condemn this act, there are some that don't; further the muslims are quick to come out to march, protest, flag-burn etc when it suits them - ie, if somebody call mohammed a dog, or inadvertanly gets given a bacon sandwich at school etc. It would be nice to see similar positive pressure exerted against extremism in a convincing way.

I don't believe that strongly held views eg. call for Sharia are done in isolation and in secret - it would be nice to see the Muslim Council of Britain and other islamic leadership calling for integration and greater condemnation of any anti-britishness.

Here is one such example, some viewers may find it offensive, it was shot in Luton

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KtJKNgO_ys

 

Every religion has it's un-welcomed groups though.

Jews have Zionists who kill innocent Palestinians every day but we don't heard about that?

I understand that is not our country so a different can of worms I suppose. But what do you actually suggest the majority of Muslims do. Where do we start? Last year there were Muslims handing out roses outside The Harlequin to promote the message of peace Islam is actually about but was that in the paper? That was 30/40, let one Muslim go crazy and see what happens.

There is people out there attempting to educate the youth, I myself have spoke to couple of older people who have preached a peaceful calm message.

Problem is a lot of Muslims have chips on their soldiers purely because of what America and Britain are doing to Muslim 'brothers' around the world in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan which is brutal murder too. I honestly fully respect you for representing the country I admire that so much but we've got to ask why? Imagine the tables were turned and Afghans wondered in because we had war in our own country? We'd be a bit pissed off too so it's a very difficult situation to try get into some people's heads.

I AM IN NO WAY IN APPROVAL OF WHAT HAPPENED JUST BEFORE PEOPLE TRY TWISTING IT.

 

This is the reason why...

 

Oh wow, I expected better.

12 years on still need to fight there? They went to Saudi, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Surprise surprise, first 3 are top five for oil reserves in the world.


Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)

Guatemala 1954

Indonesia 1958

Cuba 1959-1961

Guatemala 1960

Congo 1964

Laos 1964-73

Vietnam 1961-73

Cambodia 1969-70

Guatemala 1967-69

Grenada 1983

Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)

Libya 1986

El Salvador 1980s

Nicaragua 1980s

Iran 1987

Panama 1989

Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)

Kuwait 1991

Somalia 1993

Bosnia 1994, 1995

Sudan 1998

Afghanistan 1998

Yugoslavia 1999

Yemen 2002

Iraq 1991-2003

Iraq 2003-2013

Afghanistan 2001-13

The amount of countries America has invaded alone. Shall we all turn around and start huge wars in America? Nope, didn't think so. The U.S military has invaded SO many countries.

 

You do hear about it often in a biased anti-israeli way from my experiences. Maybe it is different in your community.

"Brothers" is a terrible word in this context as I wrote above.

Thing is some muslims are quick enough to hate the UK government, yet Saddam's Genocide killed far far more people than the war in Iraq has and would continue to kill people are a far higher rate than are dieing now or at any time throughout the war. Why not accept that fewer lives were lost as a result of the intervention. Instead the focus is, understandably because it sells papers, on the victims of the war.

I don't understand the critique for actions which promote freedom and prevent breaches of human rights. Would Iraq, of it's own accord, have overthrown Saddam and created a democracy? I find that difficult to believe.

The fact of the matter is it is due to the religious notion of "brotherhood" and the shared injustice through religion which allows critiques of this. You have nothing in common with the people of Iraq or Afghanistan apart from religion. It's not clear whether the religion itself is spreading this distrust and shared injustice or it arises in virtue of a sort of tribal togetherness in which people feel commonalities with others are the basis for terrorist actions to be justified.

 

Squibba:

not sure what exactly your point is?

Ref Afghanistan, we are still there at the invitation of GIRoA. We went there to bring down the Taliban Government who had backed AQ training camps that supported 9/11 attacks. You think its made no difference? The Taliban have been all but defeated; AQ decapitated and no major terrorist attack since 7/7.

The attackers yesterday haven't got a clue about why or what they claim to be fighting for. If they really believed in their cause they would move to Helmand, live in a mud compound, sh!t in a hole and work the fields 12hr a day to feed their families. Instead, they pick and choose which aspects of islam they like and pick a soft target to slay in order to gain internet infamy; i hope they die quietly in a maximum security jail in 30yrs time when nobody remembers them.

As for your random list of conflicts ???

 

Yes, we do hear about it. Certain people never shut up about it.

What they don't like hearing though, is that Hamas deliberately martyr Palestinian children by using them as human shields.

When you poke a lion with a stick, sooner or later it's going to turn around and bite you. The Hamas way is to poke a lion from behind their wives and kids to provoke a response to use as propaganda.

God bless Israel.

 

Squibs US and Britain are not in Afghanistan in a directly religious basis, 'we' are there in response to terrorism. We are at war with the Taliban and insurgents, not Islam, why do extremists think were at war with all muslims? Like i said earlier, it is the moderate Muslims who hold the key to peace, as they can live happily alongside other religions without imposing themselves and spreading their trap. Once moderate Muslims make a significant stand against extremists, they will the support of other religions and and the tide will turn Muslims will not feel isolated and extremism will largely die. Afganistan was invaded on intelligence that it the Taliban and al queda had a stronghold in the region, whitch is no longer in question, Osama bin laden spent time in the mountains that border Pakistan and afgan, the oil reserves are irrelevant, we are there because it there which was breeding terrorism and threatening our shores, not because oil, that's just a anti govrnment tool. I actually believe this will sort itself out, moderate Muslims will eventually get tired of the extremists tarnishing their religion, and then integration may happen.

 

Hold on fella, I dislike fat lazy big mouthed Americans as much as the next man, but there are more than a few wars on that list where the US actions saved thosands of lives - Bosnia and Croatia for example.

 

Simms: I agree there is nothing in common between me being Muslim here and a Muslim in Iraq. And it is dangerous when used the wrong way which some idiots use it but works wonderfully well in some ways like Muslims raising 1000's of pounds in charity for 'brothers' in Syria.

Nerak: I don't understand how the world's largest military takes 12 years to do the job? I believe there is an exterior motive I always will I'm afraid can't really see eye to eye on that. And as for the ***** yesterday well they aren't even worthy of a name, utter disgusting filth. And it's not a random list, it's the other side of the argument, look at what America has done to them that's not labelled as extreme or terrorism? Even South Africa and Sierre Leone nobody remembers? But I am extremely tired now I will shut up.

WalesHornet - How can you even say that? Sick, twisted not even going to waste my time on you.

Bracknell - Fair point, I see your point of view, we'll never agree I disagree with America and am quite the conspiracy theorist but it's a good point. We're all extremely tired - my Mum was disgusted at the news last night but what can you do? Go pick out any guy with a long beard and backpack? It's very hard to just remove them.

It's just annoying from my point of the view the power the media hold - people who know nothing are commenting, someone said '****ing Pakis' when it was two black guys? Someone said '****ing Islams' when he meant Muslims? http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/51092450285/man-killed-in-horrible-london-machete-attack-racist

And on top of that who heard the racist attacking of an elderly Muslim man being stabbed in the back 3 times just 2 weeks ago? WHY is that not headline news?

 

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That's the hard bit, it will require pressure groups, media coverage, politicians etc to push start, call on moderates to speak out, the horrible bit is it may take more terrible events until its intiated

 

Probably because the murderers did not hang around in broad daylight talking to bystanders and telling people to bring down the government?

 

You get this sort of behaviour, where muslims are holding up signs and shouting anti British political statements yet nothing is done about it, why?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oor-from-devout-christian-family-8630045.html

Seems he was a normal Londoner until he converted. What a coincidence

 

Not quite in the same way as say the Nazi's did though (I know you didn't make that comparison, it's just the so many invasions thing). It could be argued that the biggest military power on the planet was required to bring stability to many of those countries/regions.

As for still being there 12 years on, it's not a winnable war for any side. However they feel that if they pull out of the region prematurely then it becomes even more of a breeding ground for extremists. IMO.

 

I'll say it because it's true, and you don't have to like it.

Funny how Muslims are never up in arms about the terrible things done to completely innocent Marsh Arabs, Kurds, and Coptic Christians by Islamic regimes, yet go ballistic every time Israel retaliate against a ruthless enemy like Hamas, who are also mind-blowingly brutal to their own people. You're like ideological contortionists.

Yeah. Don't waste your time on me. Save it for someone else. I've got a girlfriend who survived a massacre by Boko Haram in Nigeria, and I've got ex-Muslim friends who fled Afghanistan in the nineties, who saw their families executed by the Taliban for petty things in line with Islamic doctrine. I'm not for swaying, mate.

I don't like the current wave of anti-Muslim feeling. I know most Muslims are good people. I'd prefer to have a sensible debate about Islam, but that's just not possible for reasons I've already stated.

I'm out of here. Peace to you.

 

1.6 BILLION Muslims in the World and you're basing your opinion on the actions of a 100+ plus? Wow.

Nascot: I hear that Nascot. Does anyone ever call Hitler a terrorist though? I struggle to understand why the word terrorism exists NOW. It is often associated with a brown face rather than the actor of terror. Just like it was associated with Irish people 30 years back.

Wales: Look at Egypt, Bahrain, Syria all revolting against dictators but that's not religion that's power tripped leader? Muslim people all over the world are backing this we're in uproar about that too I missed your point I think? Burma set Muslims on fire but there's not a huge media backlash against them why is it Muslims taking the brute of NEGATIVE media attention? It's a sensitive topic so we'll avoid it but just like you have said, I have family living in Pakistan currently, one Uncle was abducted for couple of day due to his political position, it's not nice yes but that's not the religion it is the people themselves. Islam is a peaceful religion IMO but obviously you have your own views and I respect that.

I've seen protests from Jews attempting to distance themselves from Zionism as they are not the same. One day hopefully there will be many thousands of people protesting in the same manner distancing themselves from extremists and preaching the right word.

Any acting/proper Muslim who is fully sane will not cause anyone harm the Quran cannot be interpreted any other way.

Hopefully one day we can live peacefully and this debate will never be had again.

 

What do you mean fully sane? Are you saying these are psychotic muslims who just go insane?

Also Squib, since you appear to be a Muslim - What is the rules with women wearing Burkas and headscarves (A hijab?) It seems like some Muslim women wear the full burka, while others wear just the headscarf? Any meaning or logic behind it at all?

 

Hmm how do I put it? Anyone with a brain cell really. I will be honest phrases can if taken out of context and isolated be misinterpreted but that's hardly a reflection. A sentence without the sentences before and after can be made to be something it's not.

& being male I'm not TOO sure but to my knowledge the head scarf is a minimum requirement and then like long sleeve and jeans so no skin shows basically but some woman find it easier to wear a burqa instead.

That's a weird one becaus in my family case my mum doesn't wear a headscarf, the purpose of it is to take attention away from you and to minimise sexual attraction (looks from men that are not your husband) however in this day and age you get stared at more with it on? so you know that was my old dear's choice for not wearing it but each to her own.

 

Sorry mate but you are not being honest here. Sunni Muslims weren't the first around, the schism between Sunni and Shiah happened when the Prophet passed away and before then there was NO Sunni or Shiah.

Secondly, these scumbags who turn into barbaric savages are following a brand of Sunni Islam and whether your family accept that or not is irrelevant because, just like the majority of people in this country, no one cares what you, I or the next man accepts or rejects.

The authorities know the source of this sickness but becuase politics and oil mean far more than a few people dying they'll just talk tough and do very little.

 

And how do you know this? Have you been monitoring their activity for the last 6 months?

These men deserve no mercy of any kind, but to just kill them would rid us of the chance to find out HOW they became the people they are today. If we find out how and why they changed, this would leave us better equipped to combat this sort of thing in the future.

We're not talking about asylum seekers here. How can you be so short-sighted?

 

How can I be so short sighted?

The soft squishy understanding compassionate liberal way has failed, our streets have never been so unsafe. You want more of the same?

 

Significantly less murders last year than any year on record previously. All crime dropping (and that's not just relying on the stats provided by the govt/police). Both say different to your bit in bold. However the 'our streets have never been so unsafe' line seems to be much spouted at the moment, particularly but not exclusively by those on the right of the politcal spectrum and their newspapers, to justify their beliefs and subsequent actions. It's like the Home Secretary saying Wednesday's incident was 'an attack on us all'. It wasn't. I was sat at home eating my dinner and watching tv. I absolutely wasn't being attacked, nor was the liklihood of me personally being attacked increased at all by the murder of the solider. It was a senseless act by two murderers who aren't exactly the first to use a religion of some kind to justify their actions. It's happened for hundreds of years and I'm sure it'll continue into the future.

 

The biggest problem when it comes to Muslim fundamentalists is ignorance. These people believe they are right and their view is the only one that matters. If you're not one of them you will go to hell and a minority of these extremists are happy to take you there, although most are cowards that try to incite violence in the weak minded. I believe this is what happened with the two that attacked and killed Lee Rigby on Wednesday. They are weak minded extreme extremists.

There is a real powder keg situation growing in this country. Luton is one of the worst areas and it won’t take much before there are more riots on the streets between the EDL and innocent Muslims. This will only play into the extremists hands as the borderline moderate/extremist Muslims could cross over to the darker side.

It's a massive problem and I do not see a solution as there is no talking to these people with extreme views. They do not open dialogue, they have a fixed mind.

England or United Kingdom is one of the most tolerant societies in the world, but this tolerance is taken as a weakness. The British government have been far too soft and tougher action has to be taken.

Most people I know do not care where someone comes from or what their political and religious views are, but what they do not want is a certain section of society dictating to everyone else how it should be, not respecting the law of the land and killing people because they do not agree with a certain policies. There is a growing resentment towards Muslim people, but this is also an ignorance because the Islamic faith is a very peaceful one. It's the extremists that twist it and make it fit their warped minds, but how can people tell who is a good, peaceful Muslim and who is an extremist.

Ignorant people react violently out of fear, there has to be open dialogue and open minds to see the other point of view if there is any hope of a peaceful outcome. What's the alternative....we all kill each other?

The US and British soldiers are fighting against terrorism, not the Islamic faith.

 

Only way to keep this off our streets is to ban Islam, infact ban all religion and anyone backward enough to still believe in any form of God should be shipped off to the third world where they belong.

 

It's a bit worrying though Squibba.

Various estimates of the % of radical/fundamentalist Muslims ranges from 1% to 7% of the entire Muslim population.

If we were to take just the lower figure that is around 16,000,000 worldwide radicals and 16,000 in the UK.

That's frightening!

 

we shud kik out all da pak1s den we wudnt have dis problem init looool

 

Exactly.....we all say it's a minority to try and comfort ourselves, but in reality there are thousands of these nutters all over the world.

 

You could do that with any group, for example the propensity for Irish people to radical republicanism, or white people to violent racism etc etc.

Stats you are begging a question with.

 

Already there are questions asked on the BBC such as "Should the Security Forces have done more to prevent it". Idiots. The fact remains that, with these high numbers, we will only make some inroads into the problem when the Law and attitudes change that lowers the threshold when a crime is committed, related to preaching, meetings, etc, (But our politicians are too weak to make a stand and the the human rights people are too noisy for that to happen) and when normal Muslims start "shopping" those that take part.

It does no good if decent Muslims try and reduce the problem by saying it's the minority, but do nothing pro-active to stop it, or turn a blind eye if they see things happening.

I despair.