Stadium Expansion - Bushey Hall

1990 are probably from supporters who don't want to move

 

We need a much bigger stadium as all the seats have to be two meters apart. A very progressive move by Watford.

 

They are only relevant if they are valid objections under planning law. Karen not liking it because she supports arsenal isn't going to cut it.

 

I like Vicarage road but the this location is probably about as good as it get if we are going to move, same walking distance to Watford junction, walkable to town still, better access from the M1/A41.

 

I agree (as a Bushey resident within walking distance of both Vicarage Road and Bushey Hall golf course). If the Hertsmere planning officials negotiate a good Section 106 agreement, and Watford have the finance to develop a great scheme. It’s could be a win win.

 

This is madness. Vicarage Road is where Watford FC belong. I cannot believe people are even contemplating a move. The history contained within and the improvements that have been made only recently would be an invaluable asset to lay to waste.

Notwithstanding the fact that we are currently third from bottom, in the beginning of a financial crisis and the current stadium can be brought up to 30,000 which considering our current form, and the tradition of ebb and flow at Watford, should be able to keep the demand for seats at the right level.

Of course the club should strive for success and we as fans should spur them on in doing so; but this move is very poorly timed and unnecessary at the moment. I truly think we could lose more than we gain.

Look at the Emirates - more often than not it’s half empty and soulless inside. A huge building in place of a small but perfectly formed stadium with a fantastic atmosphere. So many Arsenal fans wish they hadn’t moved. I’m not, and have never been, an Arsenal fan but I sympathise with their sense of loss.

Tottenham have made the same mistake, they just don’t realise it yet. As soon as the new stadium was built, out went Pochettino and the team are a shadow of their former selves. With less success it is possible that they won’t need that extra capacity for long.

Brentford are about to do the same, building a new ground elsewhere, leaving where they have been for an awfully long time in a fantastic place. I hear QPR aren’t far behind.

It’s a tragedy that these stadiums are being lost. I think it’s even worse that Watford are considering leaving somewhere like Vicarage Road at this point in time with all things considered.

 

Yes all things being considered, you have to take your hats off to the Pozzo's, they have spent a lot of money on the Vic over the last few years, this wouldn't be repaid should we leave the Vic, however they have obviously done their sums and believe its worth exploring anyway! In this climate that shows ambition the like of which we haven't seen since moving to a new ground was muted nearly 35 years ago!

 

Agreed.
If nothing else this exercise appears to show the Pozzos have bigger ambitions for WFC and have no plans to jump ship.

 

‘The stadium can be bought up to 30,000’. My view is that’s a myth. I’ll put money on no planning committee approving extending stands back over roads, or allowing significant extension in height. So where are you going to add 8000+ seats? Might have been possible before the corners were sold off but that ship sailed long ago.

 

First, I think as fans we have to set aside all the stuff about investments into assets and the cost of improvements done to the stadium to date. They're mainly concerns for the owners. I'm sure Pozzo isn't blind to the wider economic conditions and how being a Championship club would affect the need for extra capacity. Obviously a new stadium (or even big expansion where we currently are) would have an impact on us as fans in the sense that a chunk of the costs would be passed on through ticket pricing. But frankly I couldn't care less about the new steak and grill bar being demolished a couple of years after it was built.

History-wise of course Vicarage Road is our home. But the physical structures themselves have little history, having all been updated or rebuilt since the 1990s. I'm only in my early 30s but even for me, most of the things that tie back into my fondest childhood memories of going to Watford games have long since been demolished or upgraded.

And Brentford and QPR's grounds are absolute dumps. Let's not shed tears for them going. A greater tragedy is modern fans having to spent £40+ a match to be presented with crushed concourses, restricted views of the pitch, rubbish facilities and a wooden seat. I know most of that doesn't apply to the Vic but equally I doubt it can ever reach 30,000 like you say, so there's going to be a choice to be made soon.

 

The financial concerns are of concern to the fans. Fans have had to step in before. The owners said themselves they could get that capacity increase sorted so they must have looked in to it. It would be an understatement to say that a move would be the wrong thing to do.

Yes the stadium has changed over the years, that’s what makes a place great, it’s evolution through time. Putting us in another glass and metal cage built with debt, and most likely increasing ticket prices to pay for it is not the right thing to do.

 

The working assumption for any financial justification has to be that the majority of our future won't be spent in the top flight. I'm sure they will realise this and given it's their money they will be all over the business case. I'd be very happy to move to a better stadium with better access but at the same time would miss the oddities that have made the Vic feel like home and a part of the memories....including the post-match crush on the 10 mins trundle up Occupation Rd and the scenic walk through west watford.

 

I love our ground and would be sad to move, but I don’t think our current league position and the potential for us to drop out of the league should be a consideration in this.

If the owners are looking at building a new ground then they’re clearly in this for the long haul. The owners are not perfect and have made mistakes, but I really don’t think they’re stupid enough to embark on such a project, either in the belief we will never get relegated, and that if we do then ultimately they have the ability and desire to get us back up again.

 

It's only a tragedy for traditionalists. If we are to grow as a club and become an established Premier League club, then you HAVE TO have the stadium to go with it. Right now, even though we've been in the Prem for 5 years, we're still seen as unwanted guests. We still have the appearance of a club who are chancing their luck and eventually will return from whence they came. This is what the establishment want.

The chains of that image have to be broken away from. The best way of doing this is to build a new stadium to meet the demand of a progressive forward thinking club.

Now, I do share some of your concerns. Before Covid-19 I'd say it was all systems go, certainly for an exploratory look into the possibility of moving. Seems like we're quite a long way down that road already and are now at the stage where we're having initial talks with local councils.

I would have thought the impact of the lockdown would have scuppered any talk of relocation for years. The financial hit this season is large for a club like Watford, even if we do stay up. Next season will the club be selling season tickets? Another potential loss of revenue.

But, in a recession, and the UK are certainly heading for one, a building project like this certainly makes sense. Costs will be lower and companies will fight tooth and nail to get a new stadium contract. Real estate should be lower too, although the downside to that is when we sell VR we wouldn't get as much as we could have beforehand. But in general it should be cheaper to build a stadium in a recession.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a traditionalist to a degree, but I'm not as tied to the memories of Vicarage Road as some. I've been going to the Vic for 40 years, stood on the terraces, had the memories of that halcyon 80's era when I was a boy. That Southampton game, that Wrexham game, that Kaiserslautern game. Knocking Brian Clough's European winners and current League holders out of the League Cup, that amazing Sunderland trouncing. These are all special moments. Of course more recently the Leicester playoff drama.....etc. It's all there in the memory banks. But even now, Vicarage Road is not the same place as it was back in the 80's. It's evolved beyond all recognition.

We're not in the 1980's anymore. We're well into the 21st century and need a stadium to fit the billing.

Ok, Vicarage Road is our home, but it's time to move. The kids have all grown up and left. It's time to make new memories in a new place.

 

This is the thing. At some point, whether it’s this year or in 5 years - we will be relegated.

I fear we will lose our soul if we move. We already have a team of players largely uninterested in playing for the shirt, we have never won anything significant, and the only way we could possibly fill a 30k seater stadium is with tourists and day trippers. It will be awful to see.

 

We know they've been looking into options to expand for a while and that an outside consultancy was employed to set out some options for the board. Duxbury did also say at one point he thought 30,000 was doable. But as LTC said in the post before mine, while it may be possible to get to 30,000 seats on paper, is it realistic to think it can be done (or affordable) in practice? I suspect - but don't know for sure obviously - that once they started really running the numbers and working out how to finance further expansion at the Vic, the costs are much nearer to the cost of a new stadium than they expected.

I think for now we'd be better served by keeping an open mind about a move rather than dismissing the idea out of hand. At least whenever it's ready to do so let the club make its case rather than go into it with your mind already made up.

 

Possibly you are right and the Pozzo's are looking to be at WFC for the long haul?

However they could also be looking into making WFC a more saleable commodity by giving the club a makeover and making the whole set up more attractive to any potential buyers?

 

That is such a defeatist point-of-view. Sure we may get relegated over the next 5 years, we may even go down this season, but we may not. But if we do, who would bet against us being promoted again? Not me for sure.

I think this season has been a wakeup call for the owners. Maybe they got a little cocky about our invincibility. We of course have to avoid relegation at all costs this season, but if we do, then I believe we will finally kick on as a club, instead of these incremental improvements.

 

I think that will always be the case, certainly longer term. But stadiums cost a lot of money to build and a long time to pay for themselves. A championship club with a shiny new stadium but lots of debt isn’t really an attractive proposition to anyone. There are already plenty of those around already.

If the Pozzos short term aim was to cash in they simply wouldn’t even be looking at building a new stadium, it would make absolutely no sense at all. We have a perfectly serviceable stadium and the money would be better spent on playing staff to keep us in the league and make us more saleable in the short term. A new stadium only makes sense as part of a longer term project to make us into a far more successful and established club.

 

Interesting thoughts. I’ve been going even longer than you and I genuinely don’t know how I would feel about a move to a different stadium. It would take a while to get used to a different journey etc., and I would worry about 10,000 rattling around in a stadium with capacity for more than three times if we fell on hard times. However, I would be confident the Pozzos would build a stadium to be proud of rather than a dreary bowl like St Mary’s.

 

That’s the thing, I would be happy to move as long is wasn’t one of those identikit soulless meccano jobs.

 

I've heard this so many times over the years and I am still to see rationale behind it that makes any sense. A move to a much bigger stadium makes sense if you have the demand - a good example of that is Southampton moving from The Dell, which was sold out every week, to satisfy ticket demand. I'd also understand if we were in a ramshackle shed and couldn't maximise our hospitality offering - but that has come on leaps and bounds yet still doesn't sell out.

I understand some would like a shiny new stadium and some would like to stay put - but I still don't understand why moving is so critical to a club like Watford.

 

It great that the owners are trying to progress the club. Historically this has only been achieved in the EJ era.
Keeping the club in the PL will get harder each season. I think a new stadium is the only way forward and that is their goal. The difference between the larger clubs and the smaller ones is the expectations of their fan base. Negativity can holt progress. I think the excitement in the 80s was that there was a feeling of not knowing how far the club could go. The club hit a barrier with its ambition to build a new stadium and any further progress came to an abrupt halt. We of course went into decline.
I hope with these owners we can exceed what was achieved in the 80s and that would probably mean a new stadium.

 

I wonder if the club has actually done some work on demand? While it's unarguable that we rarely sell out for bog standard league games, I can't help but feel the crappy nature of the available empty seats plus a lack of effort to engage outside of Watford itself puts people off and holds us back. Even then, I'd say 30k feels like too many but I reckon we could get to 25k within 2 seasons of PL football if the capacity allowed for it.

 

So for such a small difference surely cost vs reward doesn't add up.

We've seen plenty of clubs do it and move to shiny new stadiums because it's the 'only way to move forward' only for it to not make too much difference.

 

I love the Vic and it looks great these days but there are other things the new ground would offer that the current one does not.
Corporate - Like it or not this does bring in a decent amount of money and an improvement in the facilities will help this no end
Increased capacity - Probably not as important but I know Duxbury has mentioned the 30000 at The Vic before but I do wonder that having looked in to it fully there are more issues than it's worth
Around the ground - This is a major plus for a new ground. Go to other grounds now and they have fan parks, stuff for kids to do, food and drink outlets etc. Will get people spending money at the ground rather than in other areas of Watford
Marketing - The Vic is not greatly marketable but looking at those photos of a possible new ground this would put is in a whole new world of marketing. Naming rights of the ground for one and more people/companies would wish to be associated with the new ground over the old
Players - As I've mentioned before, The Vic is vastly improved but if you take a player for a look round at our place or other grounds at our level like Southampton, Brighton then I feel we are fighting a losing battle. First impressions are so important and the new ground would create the right one
The Vic holds great memories for many but sometimes you have to move on to improve

 

It's all about improving the image of the club and increasing revenue streams. A new stadium, if done well, will always raise the image and expectations of that club. Of course it does need to be justified, but the number-crunchers will do that to ensure it will be profitable.

The Pozzo's are not walking into uncharted territory. They've built a rather nice stadium for Udinese and have employed the architects of the Tottenham stadium to assist them. I cannot believe they would come up with something hideous. Looking at the leaked images, then it already looks rather nice. I'd be proud of that if it became a reality.

I think there is a balance in people's minds. They equate new stadium with soulless bowl. Vicarage Road does have character, but it's more "oh...isn't that cute" rather than "I wish we could play here".

So if you increase revenue streams, provide a better facility for fans, improve the image of the club, attract better players on the back of that...…….I really don't see the problem or the fear factor some fans may have about moving. To me it's a bit of a no brainer, providing we can afford it of course.

The increase is capacity is a nice extra, and a selling point. If we are to really progress as a club, then you really do have to expand. I suppose they're putting their money where there mouth is. If we stay at around 22,000, then we'll never truly be an established Premier League club over a decent period of time.

I know all the counter-arguments of a new stadium doesn't breed success. No doubt the example of Sunderland will be heavily used in that regard. But, if you play in a joke matchbox like Bournemouth then you are never taken seriously as a club. Watford of course are a step up from that, but the principal is the same. We have the second smallest capacity in the Premier League, we're even small compared to the majority of the Championship in fact.

This is why we need to move, providing it's all financially viable to do so.

 

I'm not a traditionalist.

We will need to move at some point if we are to fulfill our potential. We don't need a massive stadium, but one at 27/8k capacity with the ability to go beyond that, and wth decent transportation links would suit us perfectly.

VIcarage Road is our home, but we can't stay here forever. Pozzo is right IMO to consider a new stadium. If done right, it could really help us get to the next level.

 

The people who built Spurs new stadium are in the running apparently and I was impressed with their ground. As long as it's nothing like the Reading ground I'm fine with it

 

Add on the fact the scum still seem a world away from getting a new ground then this is a win win situation

 

We shouldn't be thinking about our current situation and think that we would struggle to fill a bigger stadium we should be looking at the potential, not current demand. Demand can be created. That location in Bushey puts us within an easy journey of a massive potential catchment area, by road rail and underground. Why would someone baulk at nipping round the M25 from the south or east to come and see a Premier league game at Watford, or on the train or M1 from further north, or on the bus, tube and train from London?

Of course, that isn't convincing rationale, as almost by definition a vision is a state of mind, and rarely has any proof available. I remember Elton John getting laughed at on a stage when he said that he could see us in the top division, and we were getting 7,000 attendance every week in the 4th Division.

 

The opportunity to purchase a piece of land and a reasonable price, close enough to an original stadium, with adequate transport links, rarely happens if ever. It has to be considered.
When you factor in that the land the Vic occupies is highly marketable for housing / hospital expansion and the sale of hit can offset new stadium costs, you can't not consider moving.

We used to be a lower/non league club. We've progressed to be a solid championship and extended run premiership club. There's no reason why we can't kick on and become a solid Premiership club with occasional European forays. Having a top flight new stadium is a nice addition to being close to London as an incentive to attract better players which will help us kick on.

Sad but the Vic has had it's day, it's changed massively in the last 10 years, it's only real design feature worth saving is the scooped roof and the crowded and cramped concourses are not fit for purpose in 2020.

 

I've added a Graham.

 

mooted

 

The cost v reward thing is going to be the key question and I'd assume it's front and centre of Pozzo's thoughts too. You're right though. There's not exactly a long list of clubs that have used the 'build it and they will come' strategy and seen it be a runaway success.