There's lots of them. I've been keeping a record of this since around 2018, so there's clearly going to be a lot more but just look at this list of money losers Marc Navarro Signed for £2m then released Ben Wilmot Signed for £1m then sold to Stoke for a similar fee, but it worth a lot more now. Ben Foster Signed for £3m, then released Domingos Quina Signed for £1m then sold to Udinese for a nominal fee Filip Stuparevi* Signed for £3m then released Craig Dawson signed for £5.5m then sold to West Ham for £3m only 12 months later Ismaila Sarr signed for £28m then sold for £15m Ignacio Pussetto signed for £7m then released Moussa Sissoko signed for £3m then sold for £1m just 12 months later Maduka Okoye signed for £6m still on the books but not even in the squad Edo Kayembe signed for £1.7m but will not make any money on him. (imo) Samuel Kalu signed for £3m but rarely plays. We'll make a loss on him Vakoun Bayo signed for £5m when only worth £1.5m 24 hours earlier. Will end up losing money on him. Ismael Kone signed for £8.8m but it looks like another poor signing to me (at least on the money front) João Ferreira signed for £2m but then given to Udinese to use. Since 2018 we've made significant losses on a lot of players. The owner is not too smart and it's now at a crisis point where his punts and gambles are suffocating the club. But to try to balance, Dennis, Pedro and Estupinan have made us money, but it's the ratio of misses to hits which is alarming. It really casts doubts over the boards judgement on players. Since 2020 we've generated around £220m in transfer fees, yet invested back in just £48m. That's a huge profit of around £172m. Yet we still have no money to invest. The whole thing stinks.
Is there a batman-eque signal to call @reids to debunk this every time it's mentioned? He was not 'worth £1.5m 24 hours earlier', his club activated a previously agreed upon buy option, and then sold for more, due to his goalscoring form during the season. Did we overpay? Yes. Should the money have been spent more efficiently? Yes. As an aside, I'd be interested to know how much people think Bayo would be worth if he scores 10-15 goals this season. £3m?
Yes, I know the story......he was worth £1.5m when Charleroi signed him. I've seen him play with my own eyes....he's still only worth £1.5m. He's never at any point, and never will be, worth £5m.
The finance bloke (who incidentally looked like a used car salesman) at the Parlaci laughed, said "we don't need to get into numbers" and waved his hand dismissively when asked a specific question about money. For me it pretty much negated Gino's carefully worded answer.
Looked like a used car salesman? Don’t get that. He was dressed very well and looked very much an accountant type to me.
No, he was worth £1.5m to both Gent and Charleroi when Charleroi agreed the loan with the option to buy for £1.5m. He then scored 11 goals in 16 games which significantly increased his value. If Charleroi hadn't activated the option to buy, it's still highly likely that Gent would've sold him for more than the £1.5m previously agreed with Charleroi.
I get what you're saying and I understand the mechanics of what occurred, but (and this is just my opinion), Bayo is not worth, and will never will be worth, £5m. He's a lower league striker who is only worth around £1-2m. Again just my opinion. We should have done a lot better with £5m.....Ivan Toney anyone?
That seems a bit of a misrepresentation of his actual quote, below: “As Scott said the club is in a really strong financial position, and it’s getting better and better. It’s a very stable club and I wouldn’t be concerned about a snapshot taken at a point in time a year ago, because it’s an outdated picture and we are proving that we are doing well and meeting all our challenges.” And Gino's quote: And there is no other debt inside Watford or Hornets Investment Ltd, or any of the other… GP: “Nope, no, no. There is nothing else. That’s the final debt. Everything else is the normal with the suppliers. We have no outstanding debt to anybody. We don’t owe money to anybody. We sold players, we reduced the cost of the playing side. There’s no other secret there. We will be debt-free at the end of this season and the plan to repay the debt is in place, the money is already there. That’s why we had to make sacrifices, we had to sell important players, to improve the financial position of the club. The important thing, looking forward, is we are not carrying over any debt. We are not having any situation unsolved. So the club is really in a fantastic position to look at the next challenge and to move on without any burden on our back." I can't find that quote from Emiliano Russo anywhere in French's transcript, could you point me towards it? Anyway as above, all three answers seem pretty unequivocal, so doesn't seem to purely be 'hot air from Duxbury'. Are all three just barefaced lying? Maybe. But currently that's all we have to go on.
I don't know where the quote is, but the bloke was sat 10 feet away from me. Got a link to the transcript?
We make a lot of howlers but we're by no means the only club that does it, especially when it comes to signing from Serie A. Top of my head, Patrick Cutrone. 20 odd mil, never played, loaned out, released by Wolves. The only winners are the agents.
He'll probably score around 7 or 8. This is what I would expect from this level of player, but only if he plays all season. But to answer your question and if he does score 15 goals, then I'll be happy to admit he'll then be worth around £5m (although I don't believe he'll get anywhere near 15 goals), but he's already cost us 2 points, so the penalty for using him as the main man is going to be heavy. He can only be a backup and this type of player would only score a single digit return. He's far more useful from the bench as an impact player, imo.
If he ends up playing a significant role, 7 goals would be a big drop off from his current scoring rate, and would go against xg expectations and his current finishing efficiency. If he does hit 10 goals, he's probably worth around £3m. 15, probably £5m+. It's probable we'll make a loss, but I really don't think he's in the same category as a Pussetto, or a Gray, to get massively upset about.
Not the point, if he had been here and got a four month ban, we would have had to bring in a striker of equal quality either permanent = transfer fee plus wages or Loan = loan fee plus wages so Toney would not have cost 5m it would have been considerably more
I'm not massively upset about this particular transfer, but for some reason it's been picked up in isolation. I'm more annoyed by the long list (which I've posted) of squandering the club's hard earned money on players that are either not worth the money in the first place, or devalue the longer we keep them.
"We have no outstanding debt to anyone" is clearly talking about if and when the loans are repaid. As @Jumbolina points out that may only refer to formal loans and exclude for example transfer instalments due which GP might consider part of "the normal to suppliers". Its good to see that they are addressing the debt though and taking it seriously rather than betting the ranch on getting back up. It's just a shame that Udinese don't have the same calibre of reserves to lend this time round so our stay in the champ is likely to be long term rather than a blip.
As mentioned, it's the same at every club. Pick a club at random, and you'll be able to make a similar list of duds and massive losses.
I disagree. Toney is worth considerably more than £5m now. Even with his ban, a short term loan would cover his absence. When Brentford decide to sell, it will be for at least £70m if not more. Have we signed him, we'd have had a brilliant player and sold him for an incredible profit. It was a no-brainer to have signed him, but the powers above thought otherwise.
A different time but clearly yes, not signing Toney, was a huge mistake, and he is clearly better than Bayo. However I doubt we'd get much better than Bayo for £5m today. How much did Simms go to Coventry for ? What would Archer cost to buy outright ? I don't know but presume far more than £5m ?
But these are players who have made a mark already. Once they have had a good season in the Champ or Prem their value increases. We need to sign a players who haven't reached that level yet, but have all the hallmarks they will do, just like Toney. This is what Manga is here for, to find these gems...but whether he can't find them or Gino is just unwilling to spend anything at all, we're not doing it.
Sure, and Toney always looked worth a gamble, but for every Toney there will be plenty of duds. Not every £5m investment grows to become a £70m striker. Other than our Sth America signings, we've become very good at taking punts on the Bayos of this world rather than the Toneys !
You missed Gueye 2.5m euro Marseilles/Gueye and Amass? 0.2m also Blake, we offered him a contract so are due compensation
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that...wasn't random. But even when you pick one of the best run clubs in the country, with an above average hit rate, and a scouting system that is the envy of most clubs in the world.... J*rgen Locadia: Signed for €17m, sold for €0 Jose Izquiero: Signed for €14.5m, sold for €0 Alireza Jahanbaksh: Signed for €19m, sold for €1m Bernardo: Signed for €10m, sold for €600k Florin Andone: Signed for €6m, sold for €0 Martin Montoya: Signed for €7m, sold for €0 Kjell Scherpen: Signed for €5m, now worth €2m Michal Kabownik: Signed for €4m, sold for €2.5m David Button: Signed for €4.5m, sold for €1m In the last 5/6 years. Plenty more misses and losses if you want to have a look for yourself. Go ahead, pick another. Story will be the same, get used to it.
But, where are the hits for balance during the same period? It's the bottom line you have to look at and the ratio of hits to misses. We're crap at it, and this is why we're such a mess now and is why the owner can no longer be trusted to take us forward. He's proved time and time again, he just can't pick a winner. Show the hits for Brighton over the same period and we can compare the ratio and profit/loss to ours. What I'm saying, if a club like Brighton can do it, who are very comparable to ours, then we should aspire to this also and hold our owner to account for creating such a massive debt which is now suffocating the club to such a degree, we can no longer afford anything more than a £50k spend on transfers. Even League Two clubs spend more than that.
Sorry, are you wanting me to argue that we have a better hit rate than Brighton? Obviously we don't. They're elite at what they do, we're average. Which is why our hit rate is average. Which is why compared to any average club, our success rate is pretty much the same. As Watford fans we monitor every signing, but we only see the headline sales that other clubs make. So that skews our perception of how wasteful we are in the transfer market. Especially when frustrated by poor performances on the pitch.
It’s a discussion not argument. Please understand the distinction. So, you say we’re average, personally I think we’re below average in dealings, but I’ll let that slide. Are you happy to be average? I’m not, I want an owner who will create a healthy vibrant club. Pozzo has owned us for 11 years and we’re in the gutter, certainly from a financial stance. I want better for this club, not some joker who takes silly punts without any thought process behind it. If Brighton can do it then so can we, but not with the owner we have. He’s just not smart enough.
