Promotion - How Is It Achieved?

I generally agree with this train of thought. It has been interesting to see some of Deeney's comments since we were relegated and we all know that he is straight talker. Personally, it seems he has had his head turned by the bright lights of the PL and punditry, he has said he thinks that he may have played his last game for the club.

What we need is players who are committed to the cause and vision. If not, they should leave but I suppose this will be up to Ivic and co to ascertain.

Deeney has a very nice wage packet don't forget but it will be up to him to knuckle down and be a leader.

 

There is a theory that has run wild about Deeney on here and other Watford sites about the influence he has but ultimately it doesn't have substance. It has been well speculated, and reported, that Giraldi has too much influence but no such reporting about Deeney. Some of the dislike aimed towards him borders on psychopathic behaviour - obsessively looking for stuff to criticise him for. If anybody steps in the way of the new man then they should be moved on. Nobody should be bigger than the club, Giraldi and Deeney included.

Deeney should have been upgraded on a few years ago but he wasn't. That isn't down to him despite people wanting to blame him. But now we are back in the Championship with a few exciting young forwards, I'd say that keeping hold of an experienced and high scoring striker as we try and bounce back up at the first attempt would be a smart move. A blend of youth and experience is good. Currently we are top heavy on experience so there are certainly a few in the squad that need to move on but Deeney I would keep. If we do go back up than that would absolutely be the right time to shake hands and move apart.

 

Where did he say that?

 

During his interview after the Arsenal game

 

Aah that interview...the one that shouldn't have happened. Equally, I suppose any player could have played their last game for the club.

 

Would Deeney be prepared to play second fiddle to those exciting young forwards? Based on experience, I highly doubt it. He will have to play, as usual, and we have another coach that doesn't play a two up front. It will hold us back, again.

If Deeney is happy to move to the role he should have had the last two years, the last twenty minute battering ram, I'm happy for him to stay. But if we're honest, he won't be.

 

Pre-season predictions on the Championship are the same every year. In football magazines and websites, when they predict who the promoted and play-off teams will be, they always say the three relegated teams, because of their financial advantage, and the three who lost in the play-offs last time. Ironically this is because the league is so unpredictable they have no idea who might come out of last year’s pack to challenge.

 

He also doesn't appear to have completely lost his confidence like Cathcart, Foster etc. We need the right mentality otherwise there is no chance of promotion.

 

But Deeney doesn't do that, every time he's up against a physical centre back he's totally anonymous. There's a (non automatic starter) role for him on the basis of his footballing ability but we need to get away from this nonsense about him being a physical striker.

 

He is our most physical striker. If he isn't physical enough then a change in style is needed.

 

I think it's a case of careful about what you wish for. If Deeney does go, and stays in the Premier League, which is likely, who is better off?

Who in our current squad can hold the ball up? I've seen it so often, when Deeney is not playing, the ball just comes back time and time again. Unless we play it through the midfield, we are not going to be able to sustain attacks. The Championship are full of elite cloggers. Players who are not good enough to make it in the Premier League but are expert at the dark arts and physical stuff. We need to fight fire with fire, especially in away games.

Deeney is not the answer long term obviously, because of his age, but I think some leniency has to be given to him as it was very clear he played through an injury towards the end of last season. He's gone under the knife, so may now come back better with a point to prove. I think it would be a mistake to let him go this season.

We've not seen too much of him and Welbeck working alongside each other, but they were very effective against Arsenal on that final day and that's something we need to work with this season. The potential is high for that combo to be very troublesome for Championship defenders.

 

Well that's the point isn't it? Deeney isn't a physical handful for any other than the weakest centre backs in the league. So we as a club need to get away from this notion that he's some sort of battering ram that will dominate defenders. It's pace and movement that terrifies them these days, not a 6' striker who only shuffles up and down the pitch within the width of the penalty area and occasionally flicks the ball straight through to no-one.

 

In the various analyses I've seen and heard on Ivic's tactical style that have been linked to on here, it seems there's an emphasis on possession-based football and a low number of long balls. If this style is retained, then it'll reduce our dependency on Deeney and more generally the need for a big target man to hold the ball up, win flick ons etc. Which is very much a positive in my book.

 

But this is my point. Keep him in the squad for his footballing ability, not his physical presence. We've just watched a whole season of us not being able to retain possession with him upfront, it's denying the evidence before our eyes to still maintain he's good at this. If we play the ball on the floor, be can still be useful as a second striker and he's also a decent shout for a bench role when we've run out of ideas. But if we is our main striker up front, we might as well give up any hope of promotion now.

 

Agreed. After we got promoted he tried to change his game. This happened even more after Ighalo left.

 

I hope we don’t have an exceptional start - every time we have done previously we’ve flopped and missed promotion.

Hovering around the play off positions the first few months before going top before Christmas and staying there would be perfect.

 

The endless debate continues however - I don’t disagree that he would do the job you describe better than most. But good strikers make meathead defenders look like exactly what they are. We have to take the relative gamble at some stage of Suarez, Joao Pedro being able to do that. Deeney, whether we like him or not, is increasingly an obstruction to others pathway to the team.

I would hold the same opinion as you...were he not captain. He would be a good option of the bench after 60-70 minutes if the skill of the above players (or Welbeck) isn’t working. But I fear his captaincy will dictate that he plays if he stays. His ego won’t allow him to be a bit-part Championship player and I wonder if his wages, even if there’s a 50% cut, will dictate that the owner will want him out the door if that’s going to be his squad role.

It’s been something I’ve been able to accept in the last season or two - but I really do fear for us if he stays, plays AND retains the captaincy.

 

I really do think that Wilmot and Dawson might be given a chance to form a partnership.

 

The last two times could hardly be comparable. In 2000/01 and 2007/08 we still had the nucleus of the squads that got us promoted with a handful of overpriced additions. However we did buy Nielsen in 2000 and Ellington in 2007 (which was obviously a flop) but both of those teams/squads ran out of steam and ideas. This time we have only Cathcart and Deeney from our promotion season, we have a better quality of squad overall which should do well in this league even if we were to sell some of them.

 

An interesting debate. I don’t know how much influence Deeney has or hasn’t on running the club but I’m sure he has influence on the playing squad. He is a strong personality who speaks his mind, and is sometimes too honest imo, and I’m not sure that is necessarily helpful to Ivic who is coming in to stamp a new authority and regime. If Deeney disagrees with Ivic methods I’m not sure he will stay quiet.

There’s something dysfunctional at WFC behind the scenes with players not performing for certain managers and making requests for managers of a specific nationality. I don’t know what role Deeney or Giraldi or Pozzo or any of them have in this. Deeney has been immensely positive in the past but not so recently IMO and it seems a risk to hope this will change and we desperately need to change the dynamic to start the season with a new healthy perspective and outlook. Deeney going might also enable other players to grow into a leadership role.

If he was the experienced player who could lead and encourage younger players then that would be great but I just didn’t see any of that from him in the relegation fight or any of the qualities that made him so potent 5 years ago. There was no fight or leadership from him that I saw on the pitch or in his interviews. Plus he is going to be 1 year older and likely deteriorate further and is struggling with injuries.

I think a new start would benefit WFC and Deeeney.

 

That’s a very good point actually. We had a Championship squad in the PL both times then and we’re trying to return with a Championship squad.

This time we do very much have a PL squad which underperformed last year.

 

Exactly, nobody truthfully knows how much influence he has. He should certainly have more than most players - he's been here 10 years and is captain, after all. I don't doubt for a moment that he can be difficult to manage at times but I'd imagine all footballers are. I'd want him to disagree with the manager at times otherwise he becomes a yes man. I'm just about to disagree very strongly with somebody senior to me and we will have a proper conversation about an approach to something, but ultimately he has the final say so - in the same way that Ivic will.

About two years ago I purely by chance ended up having a chat with somebody for a considerable time about Watford. That person works with the first team on a day to day basis - he did then and he does now. We aren't in touch so it was a one off chat. He told me loads of fascinating stuff, 95% of which I have kept to people I trust not to share on. I did ask him specifically about Deeney as there were murmurs about him then from a few people. He did concede that Deeney isn't universally popular at the training ground but only because if anybody is "not 100% at it, he digs them out there and then". Not everyone will like that, and who can truthfully say they are bang on it all day? I'm in a working day right now posting on here.

The other point he made that I will share is that two or three times a season Deeney arranges for the him and a few players, and the players mentioned to me were Cleverley & Cathcart, to take everyone from the training ground to a pub one midweek evening for dinner and a few drinks. He was at pains to say that the players wouldn't be lauding it about paying, but they would pay every time and make sure everyone was looked after.

It was a fascinating conversation to have and I was fortunate to have it. Reflecting on it now about how Deeney is, I'd imagine he's a nightmare to work with at times but a bloke you'd rather have with you than against you. My view is there are far bigger issues in the squad in terms of quality, behaviour & negative influence.

If you offered Deeney to every Championship club for next season I can't see any that would turn him down. He's a good player, not as good as he was and not particularly effective unless in a two. But I'd keep him with a clear plan as to what the succession plan looks like.

 

Why do we have to always have this point brought up that other Championship clubs would take him? So what? There are plenty of Championship clubs that would take Mariappa, Gray and Cleverley...in fact, the vast majority of our squad - that’s not to say we should hold on to every one of them just for that reason. Yes Millwall would love Troy Deeney - but he would be new to them and the strengths he offers them would be that he’s new and offers them something they perhaps have not had.

We have seen what Deeney has to offer. He’s not suddenly going to become something he’s not or regain his pace etc. People have a different opinion to you - that’s allowed. Of course no one knows fully what happens behind closed doors - for what it’s worth, I’ve always been told that Deeney is respectful and treats the working class employees at the club amazingly. But I’ve also been told he makes sure the youth players at the club know their place and he can border on being disrespectful in that sense - it’s not the 80’s and 90’s anymore and they aren’t there to clean your boots. Anyway, I’m digressing....

I don’t think agreeing with everything the manager says makes him a ‘yes man’. It’s makes him a captain who respects his managers authority. He’s not there to argue the toss with coaching staff because that’s not his job or what he’s being paid to do.

There is a way that Troy Deeney can continue to be an asset to this club - and in my opinion, that’s by resigning the captaincy and accepting a squad role. As I’ve said above, I think if we retain him in the guise he’s had in the last few seasons, he becomes a obstruction to others pathways.

He needs to adapt to become more of a help and less of a hindrance going forward. He also needs to learn to keep his mouth shut on a more regular basis. Do your job quietly and effectively.

 

I'd settle for an exceptional start if it got us promoted.

 

I don't think Troy's ego will let him not:
- retain the captaincy
- be a regular starter

I think this is the real issue.

 

Carrying out a managers instructions even if you disagree with them is a captain who respects authority, agreeing with everything makes him a yes man.

The captaincy should be given to someone else and Deeney phased out - like I mentioned, succession planning. It shouldn't take him resigning the captaincy, the club should be a few steps ahead on it.

Agree about keeping his mouth shut.

 

But the middle paragraph is the problem. Can you honestly see that happening? What have you seen in the last few seasons that makes you think it’s not only possible, but probable?

I have no problem with wanting to see the glass half full - but I think if you took a poll, the overwhelming majority would accept that Deeney is unlikely to settle for being a squad player and having the captaincy taken off him.

I just don’t see the changes that we need to make as a team and the changes that Deeney needs to make as a player aligning in any circumstance.

 

Personally I think he has a part to play this season, but it is for Ivic to use him in the right way, in the right games and when the formation suits, and make clear no one is bigger than the club.

There will need to be a lot of rotation this year anyway with the season compressed as it is.

 

I think the potential route when it comes to crowbarring him away from the captaincy is the club captain v team captain split some clubs have done in the past.

Deeney can have the former position, with all the privileges that come with it such as a parking space at the training ground, extra shirt signing sessions in the club shop and 10% off at matchday kiosks. Meanwhile the team can have a new leader to look up to.

 

Those are a bit beneath him these days, aren't they? I can't recall the last time I saw him offering himself up for one, though it always seems in my mind to be a combination of Femenia, Masina, Quina and one or two young players who can't speak English mixed with Cleverley.

 

Ill chuck my 2 pence worth in on how I see it for next season. I wont go into the who we should keep and sell, what we do an don't need as I think its obvious to most. (Defenders and a striker).

Personally I think we will start of fairly slowly this season and we wont start ripping the league up regardless of whether we retain all our player or not. Why ? Due to time. Integrating the tactics and shape of our new manager will take time and we dont have it this pre-season, it is very short, just 4 weeks. Other teams do not have this challenge or not as much as we do ... Bournemouth and Bristol City have appointed from within and while their managers will make changes, it'll likely be more tweaks than a complete change in philosophy. Other teams will be evolving what they have been doing from last season. I think as a club and fans we need to remember this, we need to keep behind Ivic and his team as I suspect we will be pretty inconsistent until December time. Gino and Dux need to hold their nerve too. Think back to Zola's first few matches ... They were hard to watch, we looked like strangers out there and it took time for everything to click, and he had a 7 week pre-season. But I believe we will still win promotion despite this

We also need to loose the egos and attitudes. Players need to understand where they are now, that they are in the most competitive league in the world and we can just as easily finish bottom as top... reputations mean nothing, ability alone will not bring success, every single player needs to battle and fight for every minute of every game... we have to earn the right to be able to play first. We need to compete and do the dirty stuff every single game no excuses - We need winners and those who will put in 100% every minute of every game ... We need to create a collective togetherness which I think has been missing since our second season in the prem..... this leads on nicely to Mr Deeney ........ Do we need Deeney.... yes we do. He is not the main man now in my opinion, not the first name on the teamsheet, I think his role now is as a back up impact striker as age and injuries are catching up with him. But we do need the influence of the Deeney of our promotion season, off the pitch. I dont know the guy and I may be very wrong here, but the one I see now is different and has let the Premier league status, the riches, the media exposure etc etc. get the better of him and I think he has changed. Whether its permanent who knows? I want to see the Deeney who leads by example on the pitch, encourages talks and guides to the young lads and help them develop ... I don't see that anymore from him. I see a bit of media man, who wants to be controversial ... hes a bit J-Lo... "Jenny from the block, used to have a little now I have a lot" trying to convince the world .."he still knows where he came from". Well when you drive a Lamborghini and state that you dont need any money as you have plenty .... you aren't the same person ... or you aren't the person you think you are. I am not digging him out, i dont know him, his influence or anything else about him - just saying how I perceive him currently. He has been brilliant for the club, scored goals.... but we have been good to him soon and paid him handsomely in return. I think the old Deeney will be an asset to the club .... my current perception of him, i think makes him a hindrance. I hope i'm proved wrong.

The club need to come out and communicate with us too - share the pain, share the disappointments and share the mistakes that have been made - but they need to share the plan, the optimism and the vision for the season ahead, they need to get us onboard now - build up the spirit and excitement again, build up the togetherness and positivity - We are all in this together and we all want the same thing. Lets all get behind the manager and the team as this is going to be a long tough season - but we will do this, all of us, together. COYH.

 

I think that the one difference this year, from previous ones when it comes to Deeney, is the presence of Suarez does provide genuine competition for his place. Welbeck wasn’t fit long enough to provide that, and Gray is clearly not the answer.

If we’re able to hold onto Suarez, it will surely be with the expectation that he’s the main man this year. Proper competition for his spot may have a positive impact on Troy. Though I also find it interesting to read above that Troy will be digging people out for not being on it, yet repeatedly show up to pre-season training well overweight and unprepared to play.

All said, I think this is the right time for both parties to go in a different direction. He’s been great for us, we’ve been great for him. We need a new, hungrier, and younger leadership group in the squad, and I’m not convinced Troy would be happy to step back from the spotlight and play a bit-part role, both on and off the field.

 

They could probably lure Deeney in by saying Jeremy Paxman wants to interview him about his life in the club shop at 6pm on a weekday in half term. Then bam! There's a load of kids and sharpie and no way out.

 

That’s 100% what I would do and I made a thread specifically regarding it immediately after the cup final. Sadly, I think it’s a think of ‘football past’ and not many clubs work this way now, if any.