I think there are 36 players with more combined goals and assists. Not trying to make any point with this, though. I’d also have most of the 36 in our squad next season if possible.
And then those stats are usually compared against a list of players like Mane and Salah who have performed in the premier league for multiple full seasons.
I assume that after half a season (1 goal in 20 appearances), in the championship Xisco was party to the thought that Zinckernagel was less worthy of a place than Hernandez or other players in/joining the squad. He came on the back of one prolific season in Norway. Take that out and he is a 1 goal in 7 games career forward minded player. He has roughly achieved that at Forest. Sema had played 32 Serie A games, and in the following promotion season at Watford scored 5 goals in 41 appearances. Maybe the comparison between them is valid. But “on paper” would Zinc be a stronger candidate for a squad place? To my mind neither of them are Premier League quality. It is a judgement call to say if Sema had gone out on loan and Zinc stayed in the squad we would be in a higher position in the league. Not personally convinced Zinc would have made a significant difference to the outcome of this season. I think arguments for him are partly reflective of our poor season. And his qualities are reviewed with a bit of hindsight. But he might have added a different option for Ranieri/Hodgson. Obviously though the thoughts of the coaching team in the pre season, (and I am certain the views would have played a part in the process of selecting the squad) were not sufficiently ardent on his behalf to see him stay. i think what can be agreed is that the loan has worked out in terms of making the player a more compelling option for Watford next season. If Forest want him, we will have made some money on a player not greeted with a huge fanfare by supporters, and viewed as a cheapskate replacement to cover Sarr if sold in that Jan window. There were mixed opinions about his contribution too. So you might see why the decision was taken in August to let him out on a season long loan.
What he has been is another player hyped up by the club when signed to be the next best thing then shipped out at the first opportunity. He might feel like the club have no faith in him.
The simple eye test shows Zinc is a significantly better player than Sema. Sema is the worst player I’ve ever seen at PL level, even worse than that Ali Dia Bloke and I’m not even joking. When Sema is on the pitch he’s an actual disadvantage, we’d be better off with 10 men. Sometimes it’s not about stats, but just common sense and using your eyes and brain. Especially when you’re applying those stats based on the previous season for a player who arrived half way through a season in January to a completely different league.
As LeedsOrn said, puts him to joint 37th. Pretty average, especially when considering he features pretty much every week for the team in 3rd, with the 3rd most goals.
So the combined stats are useful, or aren't? Pretty clear the argument isn't "Dennis score goals, Pozzo good", more "Dennis good stats, more money" but of course if every post that doesn't request Gino's head on a stick is read as adulation for the ownership, it may read that way.
I just it interesting that you have used separated stats to suit your argument. That said it’s not as amusing as the fact that three months ago you made the effort to post gleefully that Zink had been dropped every time he was rotated out of Forest team. I mean you actually went to the effort to update the thread every time a Forest team sheet came out and he was on the bench! However now you are critical of Zink because he doesn’t have enough assists even after he’s played “39 games for the 3rd placed team” You’re all over the place in your attempts to talk the player down.
Separated stats? Have you never seen players judged by their goals, and by their assists? Okie dokie, use the combined stats (are they okay?). Still average. Zinckernagel was rotated/dropped after some poor form, and has also made a significant amount of appearances for a high flying team, without making more than an average contribution. Both of these things can be true. And are.
He has clearly made a more than average contribution. There are about a dozen or so conventional wingers/attacking midfielders who have more contributions than Zinckernagel. He hasn’t been the top player in the division by any means but has impressed in his first full season in the division. He has 13 goal contributions. To put into context with some other similar players: Ilias Chair (some on here have wanted to sign): 13 Callum O’Hare: 12 Morgan Gibbs-White (who has been Sheff Utd’s best player): 18 Fabio Carvalho (joining Liverpool): 16 It’s a pretty good return and it’s no surprise that reports are emerging that Forest want to sign him next year. That said, I wouldn’t be averse to selling him for £4m+ and signing Jed Wallace, John Swift and/or Joe Rothwell on a free.
Biggest thing for me on this debate would be what style of play and formation we are using next season. In an ideal world we will get a new Head Coach, with a long term view. He gets all signed on players to the club over for a whole pre-season to assess them and decide who he wants and who he doesn't regardless of price tags, wages, status etc. If it's a suitable system then I think Zinc could be useful and would seem to me a type of player Roy currently doesn't have at his disposal.
Played an excellent one-two, with a turn of pace as well, to put one across goal for Brennan Johnson, who really should have done better than a tame side-foot effort. Was one of Forest’s big chances of the entire game.
Zinckernagel also played a brilliant through ball to put Surridge clear on goal. Travers brought Surridge down, but Surridge was ruled to be offside. It was an officiating error because television replays showed that Surridge was well onside and that a penalty should have been given. Apparently Stuart Attwell (the referee who awarded the famous ghost goal to Reading against Watford in 2008) and the linesman went to apologize for the error to Cooper after the game.
A good first half performance, followed by a completely anonymous second half display, rounded off with a turn of the back for Bournemouth's winner that would have had Kiko blushing. 3rd fewest touches (29) of any starter on the pitch. 3rd fewest passes attempted (14) of any starter on the pitch. 4th lowest pass% (57%) of any outfield starter. Meaning he completed 8 passes in 84 minutes. Good first half - Poor second half = average performance?
So Zinckernagel ends the (regular) season with: 6 goals (joint 58th in the league) 7 assists (joint 21st in the league). 13 G/A (Joint 38th in the league). 0.8 key passes per 90mins (161st in the league) For me, pretty unremarkable stats for a regular starter in the 4th best team (3rd top scorers) in the league. But I wouldn't be opposed to having him in the squad next season now he's more settled in English football. Or make a bit of profit on him if Forest go up and fancy him.
In our 14/15 promotion season, Almen Abdi as our main attacking midfielder in a free scoring side, was joint 36th for goals, joint 127th for assists and joint 163rd for key passes per 90. We scored 18 more goals than Forest did. Stats, eh?
I'd say that's actually pretty good return considering his position. When you filter by attacking midfielders/wingers (with at least 1200 mins played) he moves up to: 30th for goals per 90 14th for assists per 90 19th for G/A per 90 41st for key passes per 90 He moves even higher if you bump that up to 1800 mins played to remove some of the smaller sample sizes! And looking at last season (when he was often played a bit further back in CM rather than attacking midfield - so these look at AMs/Wingers/CMs with at least 900 mins played): 71st for goals per 90 joint 3rd for assists per 90 (tied with Buendia...) 13th for G/A per 90 (above Olise, Mbuemo) 22nd for key passes per 90 Consistently good numbers for the past 2 seasons, obviously his goal-scoring numbers dropped when he was played further back which is to be expected, but then his creative numbers went up to balance that out but playing in that #10 spot probably gives the best balance to his game.
Now he's really upped his pressing I think he'll be an asset next season, don't get me wrong - he's never gonna be a fantastic PL player or one we can flip for a decent chunk of money, but considering he's ours already (provided he doesn't wanna leave!), on lowish wages, has spent a decent amount of the time in the league and has put up decent numbers to boot (both for promotion chasing sides) we'd be stupid not to have him in the first team on a rotation with Asprilla or Samarzdic.
Imagine if Zinck goes up again, but gets mugged off, be like a modern day Malky Mackay minus the racism
