It was, but it was an attempt to bounce back immediately, whereas this season is more about ensuring survival of the club by paying off debts and balancing the books. This season's squad was always going to be poorer, with little quality back up, similar to most other champ squads.
But it shouldn't be like this. We shouldn't be in the state we're in after just two years out of the Prem. This is a direct result of incompetence from those at the top, who are still here making the decisions. What gives you any confidence these people actually know what they're doing? FOUR solid years of f&ck ups is not a trivial amount of time. What gives you the confidence it's all now under control and they have a viable plan? I wish they never had this bloody Q&A as it seems to have totally brainwashed the entire fanbase. Nothing has changed. We are in a firm nosedive as a club, yet fans have bought into this reset nonsense. It's so frustrating that people are so easily hoodwinked.
This is wilfully ignoring at least some of the context, though, frankly, isn't it - we went to a team missing their best attacking and best defensive player and got banged, and more importantly, delivered a very very poor performance ourselves. It isn't just the plain fact of the result that people are reacting to, and wafting the 'some will see it as an excuse to be as negative as possible' is a bit reminiscent of our current government's flavour of communication/misdirection. The broad response has been disappointment because of what we all witnessed on the pitch - it's not a matter of an 'excuse'; one isn't needed, and to portray it as such is disingenuous.
Not ignoring it - I'm just accepting that it is part of life and it happens. Performances this season have in the main been entertaining and showing signs of continual improvement. Saturday was crap, it happens. It happened pretty much every week last season. If it happens every week for the rest of the season then we are in trouble. If we get back to playing ok on Saturday then all good.
Fully agree. Supporters need to recalibrate their expectations this season. I would be more than happy with a mid table finish. It is now more important to develop the younger players even if it purely to sell on at a profit. Brentford and Brighton are prime examples of how to eventually achieve success by astute transfer dealings. How much better is it to see the likes of Andrews and Morris develop, rather than watching lazy prima Donnas like Sarr and Davis? Even if by some miracle we scraped back into the "promised land" this season, does anyone seriously think we would do better than Luton or Sheffield United. Personally I don't want to see us getting outclassed and thumped each week.
There has been a downward trend in performances recently. Just looking at the last 3 games. Birmingham, West Brom and Leeds. We could easily have lost all three. In both Birmingham and West Brom they had glorious chances to score in the 80th minute, only to be denied by a Bachmann wonder save. We ended up getting 4 points from those 2 games, but it so easily could have been zero. In the Leeds game we weren't even a challenge for a team who hadn't won all season at home. They were having a real mental block in front of their home fans until we rocked up. They couldn't even beat Sheffield Wednesday at home, only managing a 0-0 draw. So let's put that into perspective. Leeds are clearly decent, but are not world beaters and the gulf between us and them should never have been so wide, when others have managed to get results there and could clearly compete with them. The hierarchy would have noted the slight downturn and the non-performance from the last 3 games. These trends are what make Gino jumpy. It's no overexaggerating to say next weeks home match with Boro is key for Ismael. If we lose that, with the following games away at Cardiff and Sunderland to follow, how many really think he'd be under absolutely no pressure by the international window?
That about sums it up. We are scoring goals again which is a plus, and the ex-PL sides aside, most or on a level playing field. We are probably going to lose more than we win especially if injuries take their toll, but all that matters this season is staying in this division. If we finish midtable, with the size and ability of the squad we have right now, it would some achievement, and a big thumbs up to how VI has approached a very difficult task with (as usual) bugger all funds from a cash strapped owner.
You, after Birmingham: "Last minute wins are always the most satisfactory. Totally deserved too." "I thought virtually everyone had good or very good games" It surely must be exhausting flip flopping so often, and so enthusiastically?
Oh come on now HB1, how many times have we given struggling teams a boost with a pathetic performance when other sides have beaten them at a canter? QPR, Southampton, Newcastle, Burnley... we always do it, it's what we do. Ok that was tounge-in-cheek but I do get what you mean.
It's not a flip flop.....but it's your usual tactic to try and undermine someone with valid concerns which don't align to yours. I think what's more exhausting is to deliberately go back over someone's old posts in the hope to try and trip them up. That's very sad actually. We could have lost that match. It was on a knife edge.....did you even go to it? What I write immediately after a game is full on high emotion, either way....as we all are. I was buzzing after a late goal win....who isn't? I admit, I got carried away with the deserved bit, as I think a draw was probably the fairer result given the chances both sides had, but I stand by I thought the players played well. It was a 50/50 match, but one we could have equally lost. Had we lost all three, which would probably have happened had it not been for Bachmann....what would people be thinking about us then? Which was the point I was making, before your lame attempt of a put down.
They might well do but we have a whole host of players that seemingly can't stay fit. Louza, Kayembe, Sierralta, Ngakia, Dele-Bashiru, Healey, Chakvetadze all seem to spend as much time in the treatment room as on the pitch (if not more in some cases) in their careers to date.
Did it have vastly superior depth though? Until January our CB options were Cathcart, Kabasele & Sierralta given Hause wasn’t around. Left back was Kamara & Morris. Swapped Kamara for Lewis. Two useless right-backs in Gaspar & Ngakia, we had to go get Ferreira in January and still ended up promoting Andrews because none of the previous 3 were good enough. Midfield was fairly decent but again we had to bring in Kone and Bacuna in Jan. Bacuna make 14 appearances. The depth was the ageing and injury prone Cleverley & Gosling, hardly depth is it? Again, up-front one injury to Keinan and we were using Adeyemo. Britt & Araujo came in January precisely because we had no depth. No idea where you’ve pulled that notion out from.
I just think our problems are clear... Louza thinks he's a nbr 10 and most of the midfield are only comfortable when going on the attack. None of our defenders are comfortable on the ball and panic when pressed, and the midfield don't drop deep enough to give the defence an easy pass out. Our defence looks weak but in reality it's the midfield that doesn't have the engine room to form a first line. The opposition continually skip past our midfield... We desperately need a DM enforcer...
I don't what a more enlightened tactical poster a la @reids might think, but it does seem like it's a possibility that the reason Porteous feels he constantly has to impetuously charge out of defence to attempt crazed interception interventions well past the halfway line is because he has no confidence in Sierralta (or indeed anyone else) to stop the ball at source.
This, for me, is one of the biggest concerns. We've gone light with the squad in the knowledge that all those players you've listed are regular crocks. Seems likely that Ince, Lewis and Chakvetadze can added to the list as well, with their recent injury records. It was a huge risk to go into a season with a light squad full of injury prone players.
I'm not confident they know what they are doing. I'm not sure they have a viable plan. I am confident they had huge 3rd party loans to pay off/reduce and had to get operating costs down close to future income to avoid putting the club in serious financial difficulty. I always expected this season's squad to be cheaper and more "championship" than last year's HMSPTL version but I am disappointed at the quality of the signings as I assumed that the Pozzo network/Manga between them would be able to find a few hidden gems on FT/loans/small fees but it seems they have failed badly.
I have just gone back this time using Excel so easier, @hornet boy you are correct my recollection was wrong, however since the start of Division 4 days 1958-59 we actually come out as average position of 16th in the Championship (2nd tier) going back further obviously we fall back into the 3rd tier (I haven't worked it out yet). Our average league position since 1977/78 (46 years) when Graham Taylor was appointed is 8th in the 2nd tier. For the last 25 years our average is 5th in the 2nd tier which shows how successful we have been since a lot of 35/40 years olds have been following us! Should anyone wish to know what our average league position is since they have been following or born just send me a pm or reply!
Quite possibly, could also be a tactical instruction from VI, it's no secret he wants the team to win the ball back asap. Hard to tell one way or another though!
Apart from being not enough, the overall quality of incoming signings is a mixed bag for sure. I like Lewis and Dave, but they are just loans, and I doubt we'd be taking the options on either of them (I think that's just something they say to get the fans invested in the player). Can't give any credit for Ince, as everyone knows about him. Livermore and Healey are failures. Not going to count Martins as we had him last season and is from the Pozzo network. Rajovic, looks likely to be a flop, but at least has scored some goals. How much is down to budget, I would say an awful lot. It's hard to judge Manga because he's had nothing to spend, which begs the question, why is he here? His reputation, which was sky-high before signing for us, will take a dramatic hit when future employers look at his body of work at Watford. If I was him, I'd be looking to move on quickly before mud sticks.
Says a lot about the calibre of players we had last season. People always mock 'pashun merchants' but when you have players playing without passion then you end up with performances like was saw all too often last season.
If we assume that the paying off the debt is to get us back to more or less where we were at the start of the Pozzo era, that gives us an insight into the likely future. We didn't bring a single player in for fee in those first three years. Pozzo himself gave an interview to the Watford Observer when he took over saying that the budget would be extremely limited. So unless his personal wealth has dramatically increased in the last ten years, we won't have any money to spend even after the debt has gone. The key difference this time though is that there's no army of decent quality players kicking their heels at Granada and Udinese ready to bolster our ranks. Oh and we've already sold all our good players so we're not going to be getting big fees that could then be partially reinvested once the debt has gone. Makes the decision to hire Manga all the more baffling.
I truly hope what they're doing is paying off the debt. But I would expect the bare minimum to be paid to Macquarie, not the full amount. I don't believe Duxbury for a second when he said we'll be debt free and the Macquarie debt will be fully paid. No doubt when the time comes, he will squirm his reasons why we still owe them money, as he always does, and the majority of supporters will lap it up and justify the excuses that have been given. For the reasons you've set out, is why the Pozzo's have to go. They have no money, and their recipe for success in another way no longer works. As I mentioned before, I think he's making the books look better for either a sale or investment. If neither happens, then we'll continue in our downward direction of travel.
Yes completely. Maybe Andrews will be a worth a few bob at the end of the season ? Otherwise it's a hand to mouth existance as it is for most of the clubs in the champ.
Yes to say we will be "debt free" was a stupid thing to say. No company is 100% debt free, all companies have a purchase ledger balance at month end. What he should have said is that "all external loans will have been repaid", and even then only if he absolutely meant exactly that. "significantly reduced" would have been a better phrase to use.
Exactly. But he’s, and all of them, are just so wielded to spin, that the real truth is the last thing on their minds. When talking to fans, they say what they think you want to hear, regardless of the truth. When time reveals it to be one big lie, they circumnavigate around follow-up questions with politician style non-answers. It's how these guys operate. But our fans seem to lap it up and believe it all. The fans that go to these Q&A events get such satisfaction just by being there and getting an audience with the Watford leaders, that they get star struck and are immediately onboard with everything.
Agree that's there has been a downtrend in overall cohesion and performance last few games but not dangerously so beyond a younger team's natural tendency to be inconsistent. I think to an extent though that's just the nature of any football side; you'll have periods where you're playing at your maximum, and periods where it isn't working. I think we're looking like a side trying too hard to keep to the manager's script without adapting to the opposition too often but I think the attitude shown is generally right in body language and application. You could say the same top save from Bachmann goes the same as the top save from the West Brom GK v Koné's header as well though which again would have a significant impact on how we feel this set of games has gone. Hoedt has looked less assured on the ball not playing those long diagonals and taking a less aggressive starting position / carrying it up the pitch I've noticed and that's having a big impact on us being able to stretch play at times and maintaining the cohesive aggression we saw earlier in the Season. I think Bachmann has made small but important progress in choosing his sweeping and passing which has helped. Think Lewis starting games and having Sema back in a few weeks will make a big difference too as Morris has demonstrated he's not the level we need
A negative perception is we could have got zero points. We could easily have got six points is a positive perception. We played pretty well in both games. We had very good chances to win vs West Brom (Kone header springs to mind). There hasn't been a downtrend at all. It's very up and down which is what happens to a mid table side
We’ll have to see if the downward trend continues and is the start of something or whether we bounce back with a convincing display and result against Boro. But the point I’m making, apart from that first half against QPR, all our home games have been 50/50 and 2 of our 3 away games have been very poor. This tells me, even when we’re at full strength and playing well we are still stretching to get a positive result. As soon as we drop below that top level performance we’re easily beaten. That has all the hallmarks of a struggling side.
Appreciating this could be in the Finance thread but I dont think the club is in a position to ask that, given Macquarie debt is secured by a charge over TV receipts (as well as the ground). If you were in the lenders position why would you accept less than what is guaranteed from the PL coffers. All realisable assets-monies due from players sold and the TV receipts have already been leveraged. Most valuable players now sold so there is very little left to offer as security. My take is that the club realise they have to pay off the external debt because thats what the lenders want not that the club had a choice
Presumably players arriving in January and after a World Cup break do count as part of squad depth. We had more depth in every position last season - given the number of players who left in the summer it’s unarguable. The fact you think they were poor players doesn’t change that fact.
Things are not as bad as we think in defeat or quite as good as we believe when we win, the truth lies somewhere in between We are probably mid table this year. Id settle for that given where we are now, Im not ecstatic about it but thats where we realistically are currently, players seem to care more and we are playing some youth. Brentford and Brighton are models we need to emulate.
