Homegrown And Club-developed Players

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by lowerrous, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    I thought it would be worth a thread to discuss and keep track of this. There are slightly different rules in the Championship to the PL.

    In the PL, the rules were: Maximum of 25 senior players in a squad, in which maximum of 17 non-homegrown senior players. However, there was nothing more specific for matchday squads, meaning there only had to be at least 1 homegrown player included in them.

    In the Championship, the rule applies to the 18-man matchday squad, and states there need be a: Minimum of 7 homegrown players, plus minimum of 1 club-developed player OR name up to 6 substitutes(rather than 7). Under-21s don't seem to be excluded from the rules in the same way as the PL.

    So we can't just almost entirely fill our team with Italians and South Americans as per previous Championship seasons. It might be worth keeping track of the 6 or 7 HG players we may want to keep, and consider how many additional we might need to bring in.

    - Homegrown is defined as: "if and only if they were registered with clubs affiliated with the English FA and/or Welsh FA at least 3 years before turning 21, continuous or not, regardless of their nationality or age."

    - Club-developed is a tad more tricky: "A ‘club-developed’ player is defined as one who has been registered to the club for at least a year before the end of his under-19 season".
    However, "his under-19 season" is defined as being "under 19 on 31 December of the previous season".

    Aside from a few of our current under-23 squad, the only players we have on our books who count as 'Club-developed' are Mariappa, and...... Cucho Hernandez... and Pervis Estupinan!

    Cucho and Pervis have been registered with us since just after turned 18 and then were on loan. The dates just about match-up, and I think the player being on loan during the time still counts given that they were still our player (someone correct me if I'm mistaken on this). They wouldn't count as one of the 7 HG players though.

    https://medium.com/garden-of-eden/s...in-english-and-european-football-c0225014a279

    Current HG First-team players (13/14):
    Foster
    Dawson
    Mariappa
    Cleverley
    Deeney
    Welbeck
    Chalobah
    Gray
    Cathcart
    Hughes
    Quina
    Dele-Bashiru
    Wilmot
    ?Ngakia?

    So even in our current state we could hypothetically get rid of: Dawson, Cleverley, Deeney, Chalobah, Gray, Cathcart and Welbeck and still have enough.

    Mapps might be kept for another season just because he counts as both HG and Club-developed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  2. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    Good idea. I agree we do need to make use of the academy more and the youth we are bringing through. Quina is a prime example of a good young player
    who we got from Wet Spam and has shown what he can do. We hardly played him last season, be it injury or otherwise, and I really hope he gets more
    game time in the Championship as does some other prospects. Look how Leeds have stuck with a youthful setup and overtime have gelled into a good side.

    There is no reason we cannot do the same. Mullins and Stack are doing an excellent job their end, we just need a proper man-manager who can call the shots,
    look at what we do have available, and blood the youth in as games demand it. Not stick with the same boring side especially if we are on a losing run.
     
  3. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Yeah, Mapps is a useful player to have in squads, never (as far as we know!) kicks up a fuss, gets on with the job whether he's in the team or not. I'm very doubtful that the South Americans count lol, that would just seem crazy, hopefully we also see guys like Daniel Phillips make matchday squads next season. @The Recluse too early for the likes of Lo-Everton and Cassidy, or can we expect to see them too from time to time?
     
  4. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    It would, but as far as I can tell the "club-developed" rules just say that they need to have been registered with us during that period, it says nothing about it being invalidated by them being out on loan.
     
    Markoa$ likes this.
  5. If my maths is right:
    Cucho does count as HG, Suarez, Estupinan, Peneranda don't

    I've done it in my head so I might have miscounted
     
  6. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Someone needs to colour code this up.
     
  7. Markoa$

    Markoa$ Reservist

    David Swayer, where are you?

    Edit: at least I think that’s his username.
     
  8. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    It's been said by the club Lo-Everton will play more regularly for the U23s now so a lot will depend how he handles that. I don't think he'll get too much of a look in this coming season for the main squad.

    Cassidy should be involved on some level because I can't imagine him signing his 2-year deal without some assurances of playing time, even if it's in the League Cup and the occasional sub appearance to begin with. It'll be interesting who is up front in the main squad by the time the window shuts in mid-October and if he can start well for the U23s he may be seen as an option.

    Dan Phillips I think should make the bench from time to time but as he was only given a 1-year deal he may have to prove himself in the U23s before January to be offered a new contract let alone play for the 1st XI.

    Callum Whelan is well liked and if he signs (or has signed) the contract extension put before him I'd expect him to push for a place on the bench.

    Phillips & Whelan both play central in midfield so again, it all depends who leaves. I prefer Phillips of the two because he has the physicality already and plays at a higher tempo than any of the U23 players we have. He wouldn't find the games passing him by as so many of our youngsters do when they make the step up. Though he may not last 90 minutes he could definitely do a job coming off the bench, in my opinion.

    I'm not overly convinced by Barrett & Spencer-Adams after their run outs against Tranmere last season and if we're looking at Dunkley from Wigan and are signing Ngakia (or even Marcel Lavinier) then I don't think the club think they're ready either.

    Sadly, I don't think there are any others remotely close to getting a look in at the moment.
     
  9. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Bring back Jonathan Bond? Would count as Home-grown and give us more GK depth.
    Otherwise, what's John-Joe O'Toole up to these days? ;)
     
  10. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Thanks for the input, I look forward to hopefully seeing them next season!

    Thought Spencer-Adams looked quite assured in the first half in the home game against Tranmere, obviously a lot more difficult when the more experienced players went off, and I didn't see the replay. Whelan looked tidy, although didn't look up to it physically, he couldn't break into the Port Vale team last season, so I suspect he won't quite be ready. In any case, none of them would be club developed as they all came quite late in their development and haven't been here that long
     
  11. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    That depends on when his registration was transfered to us, there are conflicting reports as to whether it was February 2017 or July 2017.

    If it was February he could be homegrown, if it was July he couldn't.

    One would have hoped that if it had been feasible, the Pozzos would have been sensible enough to make the switch before his 18th birthday in April so he might count.

    "The 18-year-old is said to have joined Watford from Granada in February, but conflicting reports suggest he made the transfer to Vicarage Road as recently as Saturday."

    https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/s...ed-as-watford-player-by-new-loan-side-huesca/
     
  12. Going off transfer markt it was 1 Jan 17
     
  13. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Ooh, missed our chance. Bond has signed a 2-yr deal for LA Galaxy. (via SkySportsNews)

    I mean really, at 27 and he's decided to spend his peak years in Los Angeles rather than a 1 room bedsit in Garston. Deluded.

    No news on JJ but don't give up hope, the club could reach his level in the next few years.
     
  14. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Got fed up of being a sub at Reading and West Brom?
     
  15. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    The bit I read says he already holds an American passport so I guess he has ties, possibly family, there. But yeah, I'm sure bench warming in sunny LA is better than freezing yer bits off doing the same in West Bromwich.
     
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  16. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Maybe Bond wants to see if he can play international football for America and will get noticed there?

    (I am not sure who the current US goalie is - unlike a few years back we don't have any in the Premier league!)

    Got no idea if he is likely to start games.

    At 27 surely he'll want to.
     
  17. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Actually, Zach Steffen is Man City's No.2 and just deputised for Ederson for the entirety of their 3-1 victory over Chelsea last Sunday - he was their starting keeper at the 2019 Gold Cup and has made 19 international appearances for them over the past 3 years.

    Aside from that they tend to use MLS players like Brad Guzan and Bill Hamid.
     
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  18. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Ah thanks!

    So he probably won't get into the team.

    Mind you if Brad Guzan is the back up there might be a number 2 spot soon.
     
  19. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    I've watched MLS regularly for the past six years - it's almost certainly the number two league I watch in terms of games per week/season, which is an odd realisation.

    Anyway, basically there are quite a few MLS goalies floating around the national team with recent callups and what have you, but the overall standard of goalkeeping in the league is absolutely shocking - teams tend to skimp, given the demands of the salary cap and the limited amount of roster spots and money they are allowed to allocate to designated players.

    For obvious reasons, most pile any money they can into relatively glamorous signings from Europe and South America further up the pitch (don't however, let this fool you into buying the narrative that it is a 'retirement league' - that hasn't been true for several years, and these European players are more likely to be ones you've never heard of, but are somewhere in their 20s. For example Gary Mackay-Steven; most famous for falling in a river during a night out, and once being linked to these pastures, plays for NYCFC). As a result, there's far less money spent between the posts, and the majority are Americans from the NCAA and then draft system which results in some shocking decision-making capabilities.

    That all being said, Bond has barely had a playing career to speak of above League One and it would take him five years to fulfil the requirements to even be eligible to represent them, so I can't really see that being much of a driver.
     
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  20. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Or at least he did, until yesterday...

    upload_2021-1-9_12-57-4.png
     
    wfc4ever likes this.
  21. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Would have been a perfectly adequate option for us imo. Better than Bachmann too
     
  22. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Why on earth would you do that?
     
  23. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Because it's great fun! Plus, it's usually on when there's nothing else to watch and no other football.
     
  24. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Even VAR works fairly well apparently!
     
  25. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Fair play. I just find it painfully slow to watch.

    In fairness, when Houston were decent, I was a fairly regular match-goer, but I still found it a hard watch a lot of the time. I’ve never really been able to get into following the league, or even keeping up with more than the odd game on tv.
     
  26. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Mmm, I can see why you don't anymore if Houston was your main driving force with the whole being awful for years and have no interesting players thing, hah. The history section of their wikipedia page is quite unique/special:

    upload_2021-1-11_10-28-26.png

    I think one of the reasons I find it compelling is because it's not like any other league to watch - there's such a weird mix of the odd incredibly skilful and technical players who sort of appears like a superhero compared to his not-very-highly-drafted yank left back teammate who's on $50,000 a year and the other assorted randoms, constant sprinting and playing the ball forward like there's no other option and an often total lack of the balletic quality of almost every other league and team in modern football, in the way every possible situation is so trained and rehearsed that players appear from nowhere for the ball, play no look passes to teammates and it often appears like they've blocked the way the play is going to go in rehearsal. I find that that just doesn't happen in MLS and it fascinates me - it honestly does look a fair bit of the time like they don't train together and are improvising on the fly.

    That all sounds like I'm trashing it but I'm really not - I just find it very engaging to watch, like a sort of carnival of football (at times the sideshow) with the full gamut of the footballing world put together for 90 minutes each match. And at the same time, some teams look like they're in a different universe to others - the first two seasons of Atlanta United's existence under Tata Martino, it was honestly the closest I've come to seeing Pep's Barcelona play since (obviously this is in part due to relative skill levels all-round, and part due to Martino's own pedigree) but it was an electric team that you could turn on to watch and know you were going to see a particular kind of performance and the effect; that dominance and imposition of their own style on any opponent was occasionally breathtaking.

    I would also say in the few years I've been watching, the quality and even seriousness of the league has improved enormously, whilst expansion teams continue to be added, which suggests it's going in the right direction. I even kind of appreciate the American pageantry of it, except for the national anthem singing, obviously - although they dropped that for the resumption tournament and I'm not sure if it will continue from here. Even the frequency of delays due to 'lightning storms in the area' is both hilarious and charming in its own way. It is vitally important not to get two American commentators on a match, though, I must say - I watch on Sky more often than not and it's often David Prutton and one of their second-tier lead commentators, which is a more edifying experience.
     
  27. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Fair play. I appreciate the lengthy response.

    In my early days here, the Dynamo were about the only team in town having any success, and when the new stadium was built downtown, there was a real buzz about the team. For a few years, crowds were really good, even despite the sweltering heat that typifies summer in H-Town, it felt like there was a growing swell of support in the city. Once the team started to decline, and the Astros/Rockets became relevant competing for titles again, soccer became a footnote once more. It’s probably been about 18 months since I last caught a Dynamo game, and the attendance was pitiful.

    I get what you’re saying about the more compelling aspects of the league, and the usual American razzmatazz that gets added to create something of a spectacle, but I’ve just found it hard to develop much of an affinity for the players and clubs.
     
  28. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Yeah, I get that - I think not feeling a need to have that helps me, because obviously I'm nowhere near it and may well never be, so I just watch any/all games and teams and it's a bit of a break compared to the partisan feeling of watching English football really.
     
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