I wonder what peoples opinions are on something I've really started to notice at Watford and on here in the last couple of seasons. Yet I can't work out if it's a Watford thing or a football-wide backlash. Players like Francis, Ellington, Priskin etc strike me as pretty skillful, have reasonable track records elsewhere, like to play with the ball at their feet and on the ground, like the extra second or two in possession and like to pick a pass. The flip side is because they like the extra second they tend to come across as slow as they get caught in possession, they come across as lazy compared to others at the club as unlike past heroes (Robbo, Mooney etc) they won't chase lost causes and when the chips are down their heads tend to drop and they go 'missing'. I often find myself shocked at the anger they seem to produce from the usually timid Watford crowd. People scream at them, barrack them and talk them down while putting them down on here as lazy, arrogant, stupid, devoid of skill and generally too expensive. Yet to me, at least, they're exactly the kind of players we need if we're ever to progress as a club beyond mid-table Championship mediocraty as an average finishing position. Sure, they can be frustrating sometimes. Yes, they have dire games like everyone else and certainly in the scrappy matches in this division in particular they're not the ideal foot soldier. But am I the only one sitting there who takes into account what they're trying to do and appreciating that? Watch Francis when he plays again. He gets the ball, runs forward and tries the simple offload. I see his teammates running away from him, no one wanting to offer for the pass! He runs out of space, gets tackled and the crowd go crazy...at him? It's the same with Priskin. I've seen him run the show before - most notably at Layer Road in December. He plays a percentage game by hanging off the shoulder of the last man and waiting for the through ball to come. And waiting. And waiting. And then...oh...he's offside. Let's all boo Priskin. Whatever we do lets not blame the full back who took about a week too long to see the obvious pass. After all, Doyley's a Watford legend The same goes for Ellington too. He's a striker who comes deep and likes to play the ball around. Those screaming at him to dart in at the near post or run into the channels can't be asking him to do something he doesn't do, can they? It just seems to me that we have a strange bunch of fans, who on the whole value run-of-the-mill cloggers to players with a touch of class, and then blame said classier players when things go wrong. Is this a football thing now or a Watford thing? I think it might just be us :dismay: I don't remember this from when I first started going, hence saying at the top that it seems to be a recent thing. Even in the first Premiership season most fans had an appreciation for skill - ie Gravelaine/Wooter. Seems long gone now though! [Note: Just to pre-empt some obvious replies, yes, I accept that all the above players have had stinkers in a Watford shirt. I would also point out before people start talking about Ronaldo or Rooney or Fabregas that top class players tend to have top class teammates and also tend to be a damn sight more consistent. That being the difference between top 4 and yo-yo club. And finally, I concede that every team needs it's average players. But Sadler 'average', not Stewart/Doyley 'average-verging on incompetence'. The difference is obvious]
I vaguely agree with what you are saying, but I unashamedly put effort before skill (within reason). I do not go to Watford to see a bunch of well payed ultimate footballers chugging about playing Italian poofball, whining a lot and falling over. I come to see a bunch of guys giving everything they have and ramming each other into the dirt. I am not interested in seeing a bunch of mercenaries masquerading as Watford players. I am well aware that to some extent all footballers are mercenaries, but there is a point at which they become off-the-shelf products rather than players, and that is when you become Man U or x amount of Premiership clubs. And no, it probably isn't the normal way to progress a club, but it does not mean it isn't possible. There is no reason on earth why players with more skill should have a god-given right to not bother to chase lost causes, or to run until they are sick, or to give just as much as the thousands of young players would if they were in their position. I want an athletic, dedicated team who care about the club AS WELL as their pay packet, and if we can get players who fit that mould with a bit of skill added in then great. That is why I hate players like Priskin who spend their whole life waiting for someone else to do the dirty work and choose not to bother to get stuck in. This is England, where we play English football, with English fans who, if they are like me, would much rather see an English game where physical presence and effort is just as important and being a greasy little European poof. And no it may not win us the Champions League, but they are the values that I value in my team and probably the majority of other Watford fans would as well. It is unorthodox to play in the Premiership without poofy Spaniards doing stepovers, but frankly they can do all the stepovers they want so long as we have somebody who is 6'3 who simply boots them over the fence and back to Europe. Obviously a certain amount of skill is required, but skilful players do not have to all be like Ronaldo, and there is no reason why all players who play for us should not have give everything they have and if necessary than get a bit gritty and hard instead of just 'going missing'. Character is built on hard *******s who don't know when to quit, not people who quit when things go a bit wrong and put in a transfer request.
I see exactly where your coming from, but its a transision (sp?) thing. A lot of people on here, including myself, have been to the places like Bury away on a wet November afternoon, standing on a crappy terrace 3-0 down at Wigan, so where we are now is completely different. All I have ever wanted from a Watford team was 100%, I can handle them losing, but losing without a fight is what annoys me. Like I said, I can see your point, but it is frustrating to see somebody like Francis, or any of the others you mentioned, to look like they are not really bothered about the club/result of any particular game. That is why players like Hendo will always be crowd favourites, not the best technically, no great skill level, but he will run through walls, take a kick in the face or a ball in the b0llox to stop a goal/score a goal. I have no doubt that technically Francis is better technically than Eustace, but Eustace is already a favourite of mine due to his hard tackles,and never say die efforts. That is what I like, probably because it is what I am used to and have grown up watching.
I agree with you UEA Last season in the prem we lacked passing ability but with a few more players like Ellington etc. we could do better next time we go up as with more time on the ball Ellington, Priskin and even possibly Rinaldi could shine.
Skill Yes - But 80% is Turning Up! I would guess most of us love to see skill, but unless it is matched with effort, energy and commitment it is worth little. The opinion that some of the players mentioned would excel in the Premiership is possible but they would probably need to do it with another club, as without some of these `skilled` players improving their performances we will not get promoted. Simple game football really strikers need to score lots of goals, mid-fielders need to feed strikers, and defenders need to keep goals out. If any of that isn`t working you don`t get success. It is a value judgement how long you persist playing capable players who are either off form or don`t fit in with our style, and like the substitution strategy, I am not sure Aidy has this right yet.
Some interesting replies so far. I'll try and counter a few points as I see them tomorrow. Just quickly though, leightonbuzzardhorn, I'd personally not lump Eustace in with the rubbish just because he's tough. I've no problem with tough players and like to see people get stuck in as much as the next man. A balance is definitely needed and we need more Eustace's when it comes to the battlers: someone who can tackle and pass! And on a more general level, it seems to me that a few of you are implying that if a player works hard, even to no avail, he can be excused failing at the basics? Because as I see it the more skillful players have have been let down a lot by the dross around them (though, in time, I see Aidy slowly changing that I fear the crowd are already prejudiced against and will hound out the talent)
i completely agree with uea im a massive fan of players like priskin and ellington because though most will note something thats gone wrong and instantly blame the striker i look further back. yes priskin gets offside alot but can anyone here name me a time when our midfield, whilst priskin has been playing, has ever played the quick simple ball to feet? because i cant think of one time. whenever ive seen priskin play we have just lumped the ball up at his head and yes he looks useless because hes not that great in the air. ellington likes to come into the space pick up the ball and needs a player like priskin on the shoulder of the defense to play off as when u pair him with hendo your not going to get any goals because when ellington picks up the ball where is hendo? or the players that should be making runs from midfield? nowhere to be seen
Some good well-argued points there, though how did you manage to read the whole of UEA's long opening post AND post all of that in 14 minutes max??
I think you're being rather harsh on Eustace there, he has a good range of passing on him as shown since he's joined us. I've no doubt in my mind that this is part of the reason King wanted to leave, i can't for a minute imagine that a player of his quality wants to be chasing hopeful chips and punts into the channels week in week out. As for the original post i compeltely agree, it seems that many technically inept players are forgiven for shocking touches and bad passes because they run around alot. Infact majority of the time those who are loved for their hard work are only chasing down the defender after they've lost it due to lack of skill or an awful first touch *ahem* Henderson *ahem*. It's obvious that WBA are far better equipped for Premiership football due to their style of play, their squad is filled with technically very good players and not long ball merchants and lumbering huffers and pufffers. UEA, you aren't the only one who sits there and can appreciate what the likes of Francis and Ellington do, i find myself getting annoyed at those around me who blame the likes of Ellington for not getting to a pass despite it being clubbed way ahead of him by Henderson who as a result chases it down, which he bloody well should be after yet again failing to find a yellow shirt. If we go up we'll need a vast improvement of our squad with technically gifted players.
As I said its the price tag that is the problem...people expect something speical for 3.5 million when clearly Ellington is not worth that much. Francis could be a good attacking player but gives the impression of being laid back (like Stewart)
It all comes down to intelligence I run a 7 a side football thing on a tuesday night and from 14 odd players, two of the most skillful (or perhaps with more ability) tend to have to worst games My mate Ross, absolutely briiliant when the balls to his feet, he can turn ans hit a ball brilliantly.... utterly selfish But send a high ball in, make a run looking for a pass, even attempt the odd one two with him, forget it The problem is that because he knows he's slightly better, he's constantly trying to show how good he is and when things start going wrong, things just get worse and worse No matter how many times I tell Ross to do the simple things, look for the pass, stay down the centre instead of drifting wide..... he simply ignores me and always will Then Ive got a friend called Dan. Big and strong but with very little ability on the ball. Very often he's the best player on the park because he only tries to do what he knows he can do. When you tell him to drop or push up or keep tight on the man near him, he does exactly that! Whether its 7 a side kick about or Championship footie, I think its the same across the board It's all very well having ability but if you're not prepared to take the advice of your coaches / manager.... then you'll never make it (Priskin and McNamee spring to mind)
I think it's a football-wide thing as I see similar complaints on other boards. Maybe not just football-wide but a general trend in society, part of the 'I want it now', 'I know my rights' 'I paid my money so I'm going to abuse players if I want' mentality.
Hmm, it's a results based game. This "ability" which we appear to be talking about is short on end product. If graft and endeavour are going to deliver goals, wins and success, then those are going to be the qualities in demand. Simple. People are talking about the quality of certain players of ours as though this is a quantifiable fact, yet these players are just not delivering for us. This may be because of style of play, but this is the reason why our fans have little truck with them.
I think that as fans we all have our different ideas of how the team should play or how the team would play if they were manager. I think I am lucky to have had the chance to be a 'manager' for two seasons and have learnt the hard way what certain types of player can/can't do. You have to have in any team a certain blend of players with good technique and some grafters in there as well. A group of just one will come unstuck sooner or later. I think that while Priskin obviously has a lot of potential given his displays for Hungary including his humiliation of Fabio Cannavaro he needs to have a team around him that can play to his strengths otherwise he will look like the lazy offside oaf that he has looked at times. On the flipside though, he has had some chances at Watford and has not yet managed to capitalise, improvement is needed from both Tamas and the rest of the squad then. As for Ellington, he is not another Marlon I agree, but Ellington has been given a solid run in the team now and has failed to capitalise on his chances either. He may need a team round him that can help him make use of his strengths, but when he is provided with good chances he fluffs it. So despite having quite a few good chances he has not been able to take them and I think that is what causes the criticism from the fans, he is supposedly one of these 'more technical' players but cannot get his shots on target or score a 1 on 1. So to sum up, I think that these 'more technical' players would undoubtedly benefit from better decisions from the team around them, they have on the whole (Ellington more than Priskin) been given the chances to show what they can do and haven't delivered. Improvement is required on both parts.
With Priskin its clear he needs service to feet. He showed that yesterday when he has it to feet he can run with the ball well. He doesnt get the service that he wants at this club which is too feet or through ball beyond the defence. It's not going to happen when we dont have a skillful attacking midfield at the moment it's O'Toole who hasnt mastered the art of even passing it to a yellow shirt. He(Priskin) did **** up away at Coventry I think it was when he was getting put in through on goal. But I think the original post by UEA I've always thought about that when it comes to Watford. Watford fans just and only really appreciate the really hard grafters eg Mooney, Fitz, Palmer and so on. The prime examples for me is Doyley who kicks the ball out of play the most yet Stewart does it a couple of times and gets a hardcore *******ing. Then our skilful players like Priskin, Francis, Williamson, Ellington dont get a huge support. It's always going to be that way with our current style of play.
Interesting points. In an ideal world you have skillful players who will put the extra effort in when things aren't going well - top class players. We obviously can't afford that type of player so have to have a mix. Personally if i had to chose one style of player though i'd probably go for effort. If the team puts in effort I can't complain, though that is probably caused by years of mid-table and relegation battles (slight lack of ambition on my part?). If we do want to push on, into the Premiership etc, I guess we will need more skill players, and i agree with the points made by UEA of them appearing lazy (also inconsistent). Francis grabs us lots of goals (2nd top scorer last season?) but doesn't make tackles. For a team with skill players he's be doing his job (someone else would cover him) for a team based on effort he's obviously not seen as doing enough. Him and Eustace would be my first choice - shame he got injured just as we found him a very decent partner.
Personally I think the loss of Francis has had a much bigger impact than anyone realises. Before we had Willimason playing as DM, which will never work, whereas now we have Eustace, a more than capable hard nosed ******* who gets the ball and passes it to a yellow shirt. If Francis was playing now, Ellington would not have to play as an AM and would be able to stay forward and be in the box etc, and Hendo would have somebody up with him instead of constantly being isolated. Also, Francis gets in the box all the time and cracks in loads of goals. For me now we have the depth and quality in every position except for AM, and I think now is the time for Williamson to stick his head back into the team and stake a claim. I will support him 100%, because until Francis or Williams returns he is the most capable AM we have.
The three missing links, IMO are: 1, A partner in midfield for Eustace...someone that will play higher up the pitch and 'pull the strings' from open play. Someone that will get into the box and score 10-12 goals a season! (Jason Koumas type of player). 2, Natural balance on the left-hand side of midfield. On current form McAnuff is playing very well on the left, but IMO, he would look better on the right and we as a team would look better with a natural left-footer. (Adam Johnson type of player). 3, A striker that posses good pace and movement. A striker that will get in behind defences and score 25 goals a season. Collins John has the POTENTIAL to become that player....but if we go up I really think we should pull out all the stops to sign Leroy Lita! These are the main missing links in our side at the moment, IMO. These are also three players I'd love us to go after in the summer.
