This much turnover will quite simply not happen. It would cost at least 2 fortunes beyond what we have, especially because: 1) Buying "slot in" starters at Striker, both Fullbacks, Attacking Midfield (and presumably an 8) and Centre-back will be horribly expensive as Everyone wants those pieces. Wingers are obtainable, but the others are highly wage competitive, and 2) there's just not a big market for many of these players. This means we'd have to (at least) pay parts of their wages. The first step for this sort of plan is: Convince an oligarch or despot of an oil-rich nation to buy the club.
We know full well this will never happen! WTE, Cartcart, Gosling, Sema, Zinckernagel,Kiko and probably Deeney will still be with us. What's the point of Ngakia going on loan?
Jesus H Christ, I literally just explained what my point was to you - I was making an observation based on the state of the whole squad in getting us relegated, I didn't specify anything in my post about those five players in particular being the reason we did or didn't get relegated. I was stating that if we had a squad of identical quality overall next season as we did last season then we'd most probably get relegated again. To further explain the point, if we had those five players, or players of identical ability, and the rest of the squad was also at the same level, but in addition we had say Abraham in attack and Ake in defence, then survival would have been/would be more achievable (not going to happen I know, just illustrating the point).
This is a separate debate which you are now picking with me, which as I've explained to you above, is not directly related to the one I was making when you butted in. This is because there are a myriad of potential ways we could improve the overall quality of the squad, whether it has anything to do with those five players or not. While we're at it though, it's true that I am most certainly not convinced that Hughes and of course Cleverley should be starting for us next season, and I'm not sure either about Chalobah (although I think he still has more of a chance of reaching that level again). However, as I've mentioned much earlier in this thread, I also think there are plenty of other positions in the squad where upgrades are also an urgent priority. This is still a different point to the one I was originally making, and I don't think the kind of issues we went through last season are really that much different to the kind we regularly face in a season (except for covid, which affected all teams). For instance, although I'm happy to give Xisco a chance, it's certainly not only "one season every ten" that Watford find themselves in a position where they have to change manager once or even twice across a season. Injuries to a key player for a few months is also not that rare. Plus, next season we also have the additional complication of the Afcon to attend to, which will make us lose at least Sarr and T-E for a while. However, if we had a better squad then it'd be much easier to ride out these inevitable bumps in the road each season (similarly, I'm sure we'd have even managed to get automatic promotion this season with Ivic as manager had we bought Toney in the summer).
I personally would go for Samuel L. Jackson, plenty of experience and a couple of good years left in him. Also Brie Larson. Couple of excellent performances recently, still potential to improve, and would definitely attract others to the club.
This seemed very high indeed until I looked at it in detail. These were our first team non-Udinese transfers (with values slightly rounded up where a fee was reported) and it comes to £40m of reported fees. So there's £15m left for Guedioura, Pantilimon, Jurado and whatever loan fees we spent on Ake, Diamanti and Ibarbo which seems plausible. Prodl - free Britos - free Arlauskis - free Holebas - £2m Capoue - £6m Behrami - £3m Jurado - undisclosed Berghuis - £5m Oulare - £6m Guedioura - undisclosed Pantilimon - undisclosed Amrabat - £6m Suarez - £4m Doucoure - £8m We definitely went for the £5-8m bracket players that time around, going for quantity rather than quality and hoping some worked out. Thought we would see a similar approach this time but no idea how many of these would actually qualify for work permits in the post-Brexit world. It was also interesting that it was the older bargains that were (for the most part) the bigger successes, the £11m on Berghuis and Oulare looks a criminal waste of money. To counter that Capoue, Behrami, Prodl, Britos and Doucoure are all astonishing value.
That Czech guy looks pretty lively upfront for Burnley. Exactly the sort of proven prem league quality striker we are looking for. Worth a punt ?
How did I "butt in"? This forum is public domain, meaning anyone can see what anyone else posts and anyone has a right to join in with a discussion if they see fit. It's not like joining in a conversation between two total strangers in a pub uninvited. Yes you did explain it, I was just explaining why my original post, before your explanation, was based on my thinking that you thought the five players hornetboy1 mentioned weren't good enough. Misunderstandings can occur on internet forums where posts are often of an ambiguous nature, it pays to be a little less patronising.
They pretty much all came from major leagues in the top three tiers of the new work permit system - English, Italian, German, French, Russian, Belgian - so work permits wouldn't have been an issue. In general, players from the below leagues shouldn't pose many problems under the new rules as long as they've featured a little bit in the previous season: Band 1: English Premier League, the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1 Band 2: Portuguese Primeira Liga, Eredivisie, Belgian First Division A, the Turkish Super Lig and the English Championship Band 3: Russian Premier League, Campeonato Brasileiro Série A, Primera División of Argentina, Liga MX and the Scottish Premiership For leagues beyond that it starts to become reliant on having also been involved in European or South American knock-out cup competitions (CL, EL, Copa Libertadores, Copa America), or recent youth or full international caps. It's explained more thoroughly in this thread which is useful for referencing: http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/work-permit-changes.57822/#post-2934302 I'd be pleased if we went for a similar approach this time and spent a similar amount, with perhaps one £10mil-14mil striker at the top end, and then lots of not too expensive punts albeit who still have some pedigree and experience at a good level. It'll probably be necessary as well. In the current climate the club might be a bit more cautious than before, but if they've learned their lessons like they claimed they have they also shouldn't leave us with a mediocre squad.
You "butted in" in the sense of getting completely the wrong end of the stick when you involved yourself in the discussion which was already taking place. And although the forum is public, you were specifically addressing me and the mistaken nature of your post was therefore burdensome. I don't have an issue with people joining in a discussion if it makes sense and they're contributing, but the way it happened there was rather an annoying derailing which just threatened to further confuse matters. There is/was the potential to set up a different conversation thread about whether certain players are or aren't good enough, but clumsily trying to shoehorn it in to an unrelated discussion was not an optimal way to go about it.
Why? Can't argue with the hardworking bit - the coaching is more debatable, but I think RS2 was referring to just that, rather than the managing/tactical side of things. And the way Munoz has set us up to win many games and play good football with a great team spirit (and I'd take Munoz's Watford over Dyche's Burnley any day) even if his in-game decisions are questionable is a sign of good coaching.
Basically it seems like he wants to get rid of anyone we have just signed! Anyone expected a massive change of the squad is going to be disappointed I feel.
Because our club has a culture of lazy, toxic, arrogant, fair weather players and a coach who's ridden a short term feel good wave to promotion. That's not the stuff of grinding out results against vastly superior opposition to the shyte we've been making hard work of most of this season.
Getting Holebas for just £2m was also terrific. I feel Berghuis didn’t get much of a chance because he didn’t really fit into QSF’s system.
Yes agree on Holebas, didn't mean to leave him off the list. Really was a stunning transfer market when you look at strengthening a defence and central midfield to survive in the Premier League.
So Gino, who do u want to recruit? Mentality giants or mentality midgets, warriors or preening ponces?
That seems to be in the past now though, as I said on the Munoz thread just about all the negative influences have left or have mostly/entirely been dropped. Who is left in the regulars whom you would describe as toxic and/or fair weather? Chalobah at a push, as he probably had a chip on his shoulder from not even playing in the Prem with us, let alone as the high-flying regular for a top six team and the national side that he aspired to be, and this maybe affected his performances earlier in the season, but I think we’ll see a more consistently committed Chalobah now he’s got his career back on track. Kiko strikes me as a confidence rather than fair weather player. The jury may still be out on Munoz, but if we go back down it won’t be for want of trying or a toxic atmosphere. That usually happens instead to teams that have been established in the top flight for a while, before the players lose enthusiasm and/or don’t have the stomach for a scrap, having been signed from or looking to move to big clubs (like, er, us).
Ok so let’s assume this is currently our strongest eleven. How many of these players would we want to see starting the first game next season? That’s a genuine question by the way, not my way of saying I don’t want any of them! Bachmann. Femenia. Masina. Sierralta. Troost-Ekong. Hughes. Cleverley. Chalobah. Sema. Pedro. Sarr. I will start the ball rolling and say 7 at a push
Genuinely if we want to stay up, only Sierralta, Hughes, Chalobah, Sarr. A serious rebuild will be needed IF we want to attempt to get back where we were.
Under my ideal situation, 5. Sierralta, Hughes, Chalobah, Masina (I can deal with, fair enough), Sarr. Pedro wouldn't start but would be heavily involved in and around the first team, getting regular minutes. (Before anyone starts flying in, I said my ideal - not that I expect it to happen)
There is ideal and there is realistic Clubs just about got through 2020/21 and across the world there will be little or no money around - so the thought that we will move on players we don't want on high wages for actual money is just thinking from another planet - as a result the number of willing sellers will be reduced (as they will have unrealistic views on valuation) and the number of buyers much reduced. I suspect loan restrictions will be lifted We will have to use the PL money to fill the hole in our finances and so we should If i was a betting man I suspect we will spend under 20m and I would prefer that we but a small amount of quality rather than loads of dross The following are PL quality or close enough - I assume current loanees go Bachmann / Foster Ngakia / Femenia Masina TE / Sierralta / Kaba / Cathcart Hughes / Chalobah / Cleverley / Gosling Sarr / Pedro / Sema / ? Quina / Wilmot / Zinc / Deeney / Dahl / TDB / Hungbo / Not Perica / Gray / Success / Navarro So - if we are lucky 5 or 6 out ( not going to be more than £10m for them in total) and 3 or 4 of the ? given a squad chance allowing maybe 5 in in total - 2 or 3 on loan and 2 or 3 purchased We seem to need the 5 ins to be : GK / LB / one mid / one or 2 striker and one wide player If we take a couple of "squad" players too (Piggott?) fine but we can't waste squad places and much ££ I guess Ashley Young will sign and that is fine as long as we address the priority needs Yes with a clean sheet we might prefer 10 in and 10 out - but being realistic and prioritising is key
Honestly there is a vast swathe of our fanbase among which intelligent life is still yet to be detected in any capacity:
I think that they're pretty much out of oil up there. I read that some Canadian firm just thinks they've found a massive oil field in Namibia. I think that's more what we need, People with new money, no annoying corruption laws, private armies, that sort of thing. Not haggis, kilts and dodgy accents.
That is why i urge realism When this years accounts are filed we will see the size of the hole But it will be massive and will take priority over everything to ensure survival Remember - our owners are not mega rich Qataris and the cuts that players took to wages was assuming a normal championship year - if we have lost less than £25m i will be stunned So yes it is not much of a budget but 20m will buy more this year than in the past as not everyone has a 100+ million windfall coming to them And if it is not enough - so be it - i would rather follow a championship club than an insolvent one
I have to say, I am not as concerned about you as our finances (though they are clearly not 'good', and no, it hasn't escaped my notice that our owners are not Qatari) but I dont think transfer fees are going to be depressed to anything like the degree you do if you think we can get multiple 'quality' incomings, enough for those few to be impactful/make the required difference for survival, with change from £20m. Obviously, this is all conjecture and opinion, though; we will see. Personally, it seems in a broader sense to me like people always forecast far more change and difference 'this season' or 'this summer' than actually happens - no, I highly doubt we will see transfer records broken like in many previous summers, but I don't see players suddenly all moving for half their value or less. I think there will be winners and losers, or victims and those taking advantage, of the covid-influenced money issues (Ligue Un being a prime example of that) but as far as club positions go, managing to get back into the richest league in the world and secure three-figure million sums over the next few years regardless of what else happens places us closer to those taking advantage than having it taken.
