Promotion - How Is It Achieved?

Most important thing is that we replace some of the aging cloggers who took us down with younger, hungrier, and faster players.

If we are going to be promoted again, we need to do so with players who are desperate to test themselves at that level, and have the mentality to meet the challenge.

 

Very true. Point stands though.

 

I see that. We were third favourites a week ago. Wonder what has changed? Surely not signing a kid from Spam and head coach nobody has heard of?

 

More important than listing players we need to develop an on pitch personality. The turnover in coaches has meant its been impossible to describe what sort of side we have been over the last 5 years. Under Silva we tried to build from the back and transition quickly, under Pearson we became a long ball side, under Gracia we pressed high, under Wally...god knows...

Whatever squad Vlad ends up with he needs to give this side a personality. I hope it's to build from the back, be patient and retain possession, lots of movement and passing triangles, if we lose the ball press high and hard, and when an opportunity presents go at it with speed. What I hope it isn't is hoof to Deeney and try to pick up a second ball.

 

He's been played a lot as the most advanced of a three as well. He's just a nothing player with good work rate and not much else, and yet another in our squad the wrong side of 30.

 

Not under Gracia or Pearson he hasn't. Agree he's not great, agree he's the wrong age, I don't think he adds much value to our squad and I'd rather see Quina and Chalobah get minutes over him, but toilet is a bit extreme.

 

There was one spell, under one of the managers we’ve had in the last few years, where he played as the more advanced of the central three, though his role was really more of a presser/disrupter for the opposition, and he looked relatively effective when our press was working well. It’s been a while since he’s shown anything like good form though, particularly after lockdown, when he looked as though he was running in treacle.

Whatever happened to the guy we had on loan, who was really good at breaking the lines and getting into goalscoring positions?

I think he’s one of those players who have been ruined over the years by coaches who’ve exploited his willingness to be a versatile, willing runner, and now he doesn’t really have a definitive position other than essentially being a workhorse.

His time here is through, and I think it’s time we invest our efforts in a younger player, like Quina or Dele-Bashiru.

 

I’d take Cleverley and Quina over Chalobah these days to be honest.

 

How much of role do we see Dele-Bashiru playing this season? Obviously we all know what Quina is about, and he could be an excellent Championship player, but we've only seen Dele-Bashiru play in the cups, surely he won't be more than a rotation option, no?

 

He could quite easily be Jerome Sinclair quality. Could be nowhere near good enough for the Championship, could be decent. No idea.

 

On the need to upgrade our central defence:
One of the most surprising things about last season was the drop off in Cathcart’s form. In 18-19 under Gracia for long periods he was excellent, with his anticipation and positional sense standing out in particular. If he can recover anything like his best form then I think he comfortably good enough for the Championship.

Kabasele as we all know is capable of brain farts far too often, but those tend to come against top quality opposition. Against average players he can use his physical attributes to make up for his lapses of judgement, and if he isn’t sold (another rumoured to have signed a new contract at the end of last year, but nothing was announced) then I think he can make a very good central defensive partnership with Cathcart with the respective skills complementing each other well.

Dawson however was a poor buy. Yes he seems like a good character and he has useful set piece qualities, but he’s just too slow, and I was really surprised when Pearson repeatedly picked him ahead of Cathcart. I don’t want him anywhere near first choice.

It’ll be intriguing to see how Wilmot gets on this year, and I hope he jumps up above Dawson at least in the pecking order.

I do want and expect us to add one more centre back, but I expect it’ll be either a young up and coming player like the rumoured Antov, or a loan from one of the big boys - and then only if one of the existing quartet are sold.

 

The thing with Chalobah is that we know there’s a Rolls Royce of a player in there somewhere. Whether it’s ever realized again is another thing, but I want to persevere a bit longer with him.

Obviously the injury wrecked him physically, but it’s likely also mentally set him back a long way too. Every now and again you get a glimpse of that casual class he has, but it’s been too fleeting, other than the run of 3/4 games under Pearson where he looked good again.

Before his injury, he looked capable of being a dominant midfielder, with that particularly rare combination of power and class on the ball.

 

So somewhere between the extremes of good player and Jerome Sinclair?

I think he'll be loaned out.

 

Well he's certainly going to get more of a chance than Sinclair (who knows, he may have turned out better had he actually had a bit of a run with us in the Championship). Should be better than Sinclair anyway!

 

Have nowhere near as much confidence as some that we'll retain all these players, however... the effect of Covid on the transfer market remains to be seen. It feels like clubs are nervous, any winter lockdown is going to lead to another long period of paying massive wages with a big cut in income. Can see this being quite a depressed transfer window - by now you'd expect the likes of Ryan Fraser to be snapped up on a big signing on fee and wages but no-one has made the move. The more depressed the market, the better for us, particularly if we can strengthen the squad on the cheap by integrating some of the better loan players.

 

Those first few games under Silva, he looked a very shrewd signing, yeah it was only about 5 games, but I was pretty sure he was going to be absolutely class. Did well under Pearson, albeit not quite at the same level, before falling away, be a great option to have, but I would like us to have a more physical option too

 

Absolutely none. Also think that Quina is the most overrated player in our squad, (alongside Chalobah, who has only ever had one good season, all the way back when he was on loan with us at 18 years old). Lovely flashes of skill but has shown very little to suggest he can impose himself on a game.

 

We just don't know about Quina in terms of running a game.

But we never will unless we try him.

He certainly has skills and a good shot.

Creativity in the centre will be needed at some point. Wouldn't be a huge stretch to say he's the most likely option to be able to provide it from the current squad, apart from Hughes perhaps.

(I'm assuming Pereyra is gone)

 

Point 1 is bang on the money
Point 2 , and our uselessness at set pieces , is down to managerial turnover.

 

Get Janmaat fit?

That'd be nice.

What are the chances though?

 

But for how long ? !

 

37 minutes?

 

One of the main problems we have with our collective centre backs, aside from the their general defensive ability, is that they are all to varying degrees absolutely abysmal with the ball. We lose possession so much, and it comes straight back with the pressure on us so much of the time, because none of them can do anything other than hoof it up the pitch. I made a lovely visual-post exploration of this phenomenon, with particular regard to decision-making as a result, during the resumption.

We mustn't forget this, and by 'we', I mean Gino and his scouts/technical staff. I would hope Ivic would insist on a player who is capable of retaining possession/actually building play, but only time will tell.

 

Great points .

The problem is that if we unearthed a defender who could play he would be taken
off our hands rapido.
A while back we had Britos Prodl Holebas who may not have been the greatest ball players
but they knew how to defend .

 

Even during that period I thought he still looked our worst player, he just looked a bit better because everyone else was playing well and with confidence.

 

That doesn't really matter though, in fairness; it's true of any team who aren't a global super-elite member, and it's particularly true of us given our ownership ethos.

If we have centre backs who people want to take off our hands for any reason other than the flawed idea of a relegation firesale, that's a good thing! Then we find another, or develop one (fat chance eh), and the cycle begins anew. We know that the idea that there's no profit in defenders is outdated, so there's no reason to avoid it from a player-trading perspective, and we have to exist in the reality of modern football; our massive inability to play with the ball and create chances of our own is in decent part down to our refusal to play through the middle, something that comes directly (although not entirely) from our centre backs.

Having a creative player with any guile at all would be another contribution to this aim, so the least we could do is play Hughes in a position in which his ability on the ball can be put to use.

 

Yep. I cannot disagree.
Although unearthing a never ending supply of ball playing defenders could be a challenge !.

 

I do agree, but at the same time as other posters here have pointed out before (Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly which one/s it was) they have been available, and we've ignored the possibility.

We refused to be in for Adam Webster when he was available based seemingly on the idea that there was no value in him/he was too expensive, at a time we were at the peak of our player-attractiveness, and far more attractive a proposition than the Brighton side he did subsequently join, and now he's an integral part of a team who stayed up comfortably and are undergoing a revolution in playing style under a progressive, dynamic young manager. How much would he go for now? More than Brighton paid, that's for sure.

I do also think there's a distinction to be drawn between centre backs who are able to play the ball, and so-called 'ball-playing' centre backs. We don't have to find the next John Stones every time (and of course, for other reasons we might well not want to) but there is a very healthy middle-ground between his skill level and that of our cloggers, who are to a man well below an acceptable level for the modern game.

 

I think he looked better than you’re giving him credit, but I agree it helped the rest of the side were playing with confidence. In the victory at Bournemouth, I thought he was really good.

 

I think we've seen too little of Quina to be sure about him. But, when I have seen him, he's shown a good deal of trickery on the ball, but he over-plays it. He gets caught with the ball and so sets up attacks for the other side. He's also small, so winning the ball is not really a strength. Therefore I only see him being a possible asset if he plays further forward: We know he has a shot on him and he surely has enough skills to take on defenders.
Extending players' ability-sets tends not to be done at this club, however, because of the way coaches are employed.

 

Yup.

Behind the front two (or lone striker) but not in a midfield two.

 

Odds will change a lot in the next few weeks. I checked Skybet a week ago and we were joint 2nd Favourite with Norwich, Brentford were their favourites. But that would have been an opening market, as money is put on various teams the odds will represent the bookies' liabilities, i.e. most people betting on the Championship outright or promotion are backing us, hence we are the current favourites. As odds change and a few transfers occur with the bigger clubs some clubs' odds will suddenly represent good value and so people will put on a few quid and that will change odds again.

The bookies' opinions will also matter but that is secondary to liabilities. Even if we have a poor or average start but retain our best players, if the liabilities and opinions remain that we will go up we will remain amongst the favourites.

 

i think Deeney has to go. We don’t know what Deeney we will get and whether he will be fit or focussed on Watford. But mostly we need to freshen up and rejuvenate the team and provide some sort of demarcation from last season and the past. Theoretically. Deeney could be a great help to Ivic but I fear he would be more of an obstacle to Ivic stamping his authority and vision on the team. Obviously this is just my speculation with no evidence but I really feel we need a fresh start and Deeney leaving is key to that.

 

I don’t think Deeney necessarily has to go, he needs to play when he is the best solution for a game and he needs to sit it out on the bench when he’s not.