Great post, agree with all of this. Wondering if those criticising Javi for bringing on Success and Chalobah were actually watching the game. It came too late but Success held the ball up well and posed a threat consistently and Chalobah injected some urgency and positivity into the midfield, which I thought was completely lacking from Doucoure. It’s obviously frustrating that there’s a £40million player on the bench, and you could argue that he should be starting but I think it’s bizarre to criticise the choice of subs given how we finished the game. There were brief passages where we were beating the press and playing one and two touch in their half which reminded me of when we were at our best last season away from home but it didn’t last. We’re making individual errors consistently, particularly defensively. I don’t get why we’re persisting with Femenia, he’s never been great defensively and is frustratingly indecisive going forward. Think investing in new full backs is a must like everyone else.
On balance that was a fair away point today & never ceases to astound when anyone reckons all you have to do is turn up at SJP in order to win. Especially when they did over Spurs a week earlier. That's is what some might called entitled. I'd still prefer JG to stay. The players are not gelling in the attack but I feel it's not that bad that they can't turn it around. I'd agree with what others have said that it's a confidence problem, if a few of those SOT's go in, you have a different confidence about the team. You can see some of the sparks & passage of plays. It's not the totally dreadful football & dire tactics some are trying to make out. As someone else said if you get a new manager in they most likely won't be able to make any marked improvement results wise against the next 3 anyway. Either way I think you have to trust the club to make the right call on JG because you can be certain they know what's really going on behind the scenes.
The reason would almost certainly have been tactical. He would have had to have changed the formation if he brought on a winger. If we had been losing I'm sure Sarr and probably Welbeck too would have come on. But we were never chasing the game. A point away from home is always a good point. But understandably people are frustrated (if mentally sound) or scared shitless (more anxious types) due to our terrible start to the season. If that was the first game of the season people would be fine about an away point. The fact we could have 1 or 2 points after 7 games is making a lot of people (including myself) freak out. It means we basically have to get almost all our points to avoid relegation from 31 games. Its gonna be a big challenge.
https://twitter.com/AdamLeventhal/status/1167906093785202689?s=19 Re the #NUFC goal v #WatfordFC today. Have had it confirmed that VAR did simply miss the handball in build up to Schär’s goal & it should have been ruled out. Too late now obviously, but reminder VAR not immune from human error. HOW?! HOW THE ACTUAL **** DO YOU MISS SOMETHING LIKE THIS?!
I was watching. Chalobah coming on made some sense I guess, with Doucoure hardly playing a blinder and on a yellow. Him coming on wasn’t the end of the world but signalled no intent to change tactics as it was a straight swap. And Success coming on, with Welbeck on the bench and there’s only 20 minutes left, was a poor choice. Young Isaac has done barely anything in over two seasons and, if he manages to keep his footing, needs multiple goes to pull something off. I disagree he posed much threat to Newcastle. He completely fluffed the headed chance from a great Cleverley cross. He held up the ball a bit. But that was it. I’d have rather we have them something to think about by attacking with pace given we’re incapable of shutting the back door instead. Plus wasn’t there very vocal criticism from the away section when the subs were made?
For the avoidance of doubt DJ was signed as a RWB when we were planning to play that system with Mazzari. He also played RWB for Holland in the 2014 world cup. In my opinion he is a superb RWB and personally I think it's his best position as he offers so much going forward.
I was there. We were livid about Hughes being subbed after being our best player today, not the subs who came on. And I'm defending Success today as he did as much as you could ask for between Coventry and today. His final ball for others has suddenly gone up a level out of nowhere and has looked a lot more like how we hope Deeney would play as a target man.
Funnily enough I agree with SLB, in that I was surprised to see the appraisals of Chalobah here because, from my viewpoint, it looked like he went down easily, misplaced several balls in his shortish time on the pitch and generally looked like he was continuing the sad theme of not being the same player he was pre ludicrously-catastrophic freak injury break. As SLB said, opinions! I'm also not saying I'm right and anyone else is wrong, but I came away slightly despondent thinking I'd seen more evidence that he might well never get back to the player he threatened to be in those first few games under Slither. I really hope I saw it wrong/I am proven wrong, because there's not much I'd like to see more than him becoming a starter for us permanently. I will agree that he seemed more impactful than Doucoure, but I felt like that said more about Doucoure and his performance than Natty Chals. The issue we are facing is that, should we be in the search for a head coach in the near future, we are/are incredibly likely to be in a position that really only demands a relegation firefighter of a manager. And yet, we are the least set up to accommodate one of any club in the league. It just won't happen. It's what anyone else would do if, as we can be seemingly predict with a fair amount of confidence, they found themselves with one point from their opening seven games, or just under 1/5th of the entire season. Now, I'm not saying I want that kind of manager; I'm not sure many of us would. But the only alternative is to find a modern, 'positive' manager so genius and inspirational that they come in and instantly change everything about the attitude, the performances and the results for the remainder of the season. That is a very tall order indeed. The way our club is set up just doesn't leave much room for the kind of coach that the situation we have found ourselves/are likely to find ourselves in a few weeks down the road. We of all teams can't really afford to have this kind of start, particularly because of the ongoing affect it will have on our morale and chances of bringing ourselves out of this funk. That isn't a concern in the same way when we start strongly, only going on an extended run of poor form after already having bagged a majority of the points needed to survive. I'm not sure what the answer is, other than a rabbit out of a hat of an appointment, should one be required. I don't really think anyone fully saw this coming, even with our public reservations over this summer's defensive recruitment.
I’ll admit, I’m pretty desperate for him to come good, but I thought it was a big improvement on the few times I’ve seen him since his injury. Granted, the bar was set very low because he’s looked so far off the pace previously (wasn’t able to see him play midweek, obviously, but it sounded like he did well enough). I suppose it was also a low-tempo game that he was coming into today, so perhaps it’s no shock I thought he looked more up to speed.
So whoever the VAR ref is is completely incompetent. The fool can’t even apply the rules when having replays from every angle available. Will he be struck off or even rested for his utter incompetence?
Well you were there PJ so I’m not going to say you’re wrong. But I don’t think that’s completely right. I’d discount anything against Coventry, as that’s not a level to judge anyone at except young kids and players returning from injury. There’s no way that worldie of a pass he played to Sarr on Tuesday happens in a Premier League match. He would get neither the time to play it nor an opponent who couldn’t pick it. Plus he’s a striker, his job is to score goals and he’s just not very good at it. Today he had one chance and royally stuffed it up while unmarked in the middle of the box with just the keeper to beat with a header.
I'll listen to Leventhal when he says who said this or what position they are in. Or if the FA make a statement about it. Until then, it might as well have been a post on here.
I think it’s unfair to say people haven’t seen this coming. Many of us have vociferously pointed out the defensive issues and complete lack of attention over 4 transfer windows. These posters had to put up with people slamming them as “entitled” and “negative”. They’ve had to put up with people questioning them being true supporters. Well now the defensive recruitment incompetence is coming home to roost those joeys have either vanished into thin air or are now agreeing. Admittedly there are a few superfans who still think everything is fine and credit to them I suppose for sticking to their guns.
It was Craig Pawson. Arguably the second handball decision involving him we’ve come up on the unlucky side of already this season, after his call on the Murray one on the opening day.
Played a very clever little ball into Pereyra when he had the shot late on. Not as good a pass as Tuesday night but was still a neat bit of football requiring him to carry to the ball forward, spot the run and weight the pass right.
This is why I took great care to say 'fully', and even highlight it in bold, as well as referencing the criticism on here about our summer defensive recruitment. At no point did I say no one had seen this coming full stop. I'm not sure what I could do to make more of a nod to it/them and make it more apparent that I am not implying that, and nor do I believe it to be the case. I am obviously very well aware that people criticised it, myself included in that number. But last year our rather questionable defence challenged for 7th for 9/10ths of the season, eventually finished 11th and saw us reach the FA cup final. I don't think even many of the criticisers would have said that they expected the same defence, with one addition, to perform quite so catastrophically quite so quickly, absolutely fall apart and bear a great deal of responsibility in us picking up a single point from our first four (relatively kind) fixtures, leaving us rooted to the bottom of the table, if they're being totally honest. I was also referencing the general staff up to the Pozzos themselves, as much as the fans and assorted commenters.
Is it a very bad day to be a Watford fan? That’s the point I picked up on. Clearly we have problems but a very bad day to be a Watford is ridiculous. I could see what he was trying to do but i thought we would get Sarr and Delefeou on after an hour to have a real go but I have to admit the subs were poor.
People furious at today's result and performance are not talking in isolation. They are seeing this in the context of the 3 previous defeats and the run of results running back to the past season. If we'd finished last season with a couple of extra wins, put up a fight in the final and beaten West Ham and Brighton, I dare say most people would be calling today a decent point and the performance a blip. It's not people feeling entitled to win at SJP, it's people feeling entitled to win at some point, ever, which is reasonable, even if you disagree.
I didn’t expect us to be so dreadful and unprepared against Brighton. But before that game a number of people pointed out how big a game it was give the run of 6 games after that. Prodl ability dropped off a cliff. It wasn’t a huge leap to think that having Holebas, Foster and Cathcart as key players at similar (or older) ages and adding similar in Dawson could be a recipe for disaster. In hindsight the lack of courage and organisation against Brighton was absolutely unforgivable. It was a pre season performance. If Gracia had had us prepared properly for that game (and Deeney not playing at 80% fitness) we would have had a fair bit of breathing space. That game was huge imo and we may never recover.
It’s all relative. I’d say we are 50/50 to go down. That will undo everything. Joao Pedro won’t come near us. Top players will leave. The duffers on 4 year contracts will stick around and drain us. I’d say it’s a bad time. Admittedly not as bad as travelling to Stockport in league 1 and losing 1-0 but all relative.
I certainly agree in that I think that game/performance is a large part of why panic stations were reached so quickly, because losing on the opening day is one thing (not a good one) but no one expects to go into the first day of the season looking so sluggish, profligate and disjointed. It couldn't have been a worse start, and against a team we considered 'worse'; certainly one that we would have needed and been expected to take points off. I remember how much Deeney talked about the impact missing most of pre-season thanks to an injury under Mazzarri affected his entire season, because he could never get up to speed properly (I doubt his habits outside the game helped in that endeavour). There, it looked like every single one of our players had missed their pre-season.
On this forum it was only a matter of time before some clown pulled the entitled club out of the bag. I imagine it would still happen if we have 1 point after 10 games.
A few thoughts on why certain players are selected over others right now. Welbeck & Sarr were never going to start or play much of a part today after both started in midweek. Neither had a pre-season, Welbeck is still on his way back after a serious ankle injury & Sarr had an extended season. If you want both to suffer pulls or strains and play even less of a part as the season develops then yes, chuck 'em in or on and see them pull up lame. Chalobah still needs to be eased back into playing back-to-back matches for the same reason as Welbeck. Deulofeu played little part in pre-season. He also struggled at the end of last season, being injured BEFORE the semi-final and then turning his ankle over after coming on, causing him to be substituted. It's just a guess but I think he's being carefully looked after due to an existing problem. Kiko, in my opinion, only played today because Foulquier played the 90 minutes against Coventry. Foulquier is another with little match time in pre-season so would have struggled to play 2x 90 minutes in less than a week. With Masina possibly not fully focused after becoming a father during the week and the somewhat ambiguous 'technical decision' reason of Holebas not playing, there really was nobody else to line-up at left wing back. Don't even begin to think Zeegelaar should be anywhere near the squad - I've seen him twice for the u23s this season and the sooner he goes to Udinese the better. I watched the streams when available of the pre-season games and one of the things that stood out for me was how poor Janmaat played. I wasn't surprised he started the season out of the side but at least he looks to have kicked into action now. Better late than never. Quina wasn't that good against Coventry and in my opinion didn't deserve to be in the starting XI or a sub today. He was busy and positive but he was also caught with the ball time and again while his passing was often woeful. He's a very decent player in patches but must learn to keep things simple under pressure. Penaranda, other than a fine first touch and shot was pretty ordinary in midweek too, so, like Quina, didn't deserve a place on the bench. Last season we had an excellent record with regards to players staying injury free so whatever methods the medical team follow I hope it's more of the same this season. If that means a strong bench for now and just cameos from players who look like they should be starting then so be it.
But the obvious comeback to that is the bog standard ‘if they’re not fit enough to play, why are they on the bench?’ Just two days ago the club were heralding the fact Javi has a 30 man squad to choose from for today’s game with only Deeney injured. I know there’s a balance to be struck and I’d say that was reflected in them not being starters. I can live with that. But if you’re not going to bring them on at all then what’s the point?
All the streams were sh*te today so my view if the match was fairly sketchy . From what I saw we started well with our pressing causing Newcastle to panic a bit, but didn’t take advantage . Our passing looked pretty poor and there was little cohesion to our play . Think we really missed Capoue. We were much better vs West Ham. On the plus side we only conceded 1 goal , partly due to Foster and maybe having 3 centre halves giving us a bit more cover . Not sure if Javis strategy was to aim for a draw to try to boost the confidence a bit , but was a bit frustrating when Newcastle were well on top that he left it so late to change things . I didn’t necessarily think that was the case last week as we were on top but definitely think Javi could have made changes earlier . Not sure where this leaves us now with 3 tough matches coming up ? We really needed 3 points today and I’m worried . I don’t really want Javi to be sacked but he must be ok borrowed time now as we are in serious danger if he can’t stop the rot . I don’t want us to lose our premier league status .
I think fans were getting complacent and/or entitled over the summer. With hindsight I was definitely complacent about our defence and viewing our main rivals as Wolves Everton Leicester and Wham. I think a lot of fans and people at the club took their eye off the ball. Everyone has known for a long time that we need an upgrade at CB but a lot of people including myself didnt appreciate the urgency. I thought Dawsom would suffice but he has clearly made us worse. Either because he can't play with CC, cant play in JGs systems or because he is sh!t. It's also clear now that we needed a new left back and those who said that were correct. If we spent the Sarr money on a CB and LB things would probably b looking a lot less desperate right now. I think the entitlement/complacency was partly caused by beating Wolves in the FAC. It was easy to forget that they were cruising to victory until we got a wonder goal and Troy played for a penalty. At that point most Watford fans thought we were on the same level as/better than Wolves. But subsequent events have shown that we are in no way entitled to mid table. Unlike our last 4 seasons in the prem we started this season without much/if any fear of relegation amongst most people at the club. Instead of a backs to the wall, fight to the death mentality we started the season in flip flops on a sunny day with a genteel atmosphere at the vic. We are yet to recover from our summer of complacency and entitlement and it could severely damage our chances of survival.
Just seen the highlights. Success should have scored the header. VAR decision clearly wrong. But still somehow feel we were lucky with the draw Something to build on at least COYH
