Stadium Expansion

I've always thought we should relocate, but most of the good sites have been snapped up now. IMO the best site was the old Rolls Royce/Warner Bros studio. Great road links for M1 and M25, plus a lot of undeveloped land away from housing.

But if we do finally develop a 30,000 seater stadium at Vicarage Road, then we will be set to compete to our maximum level. Clearly our stadium is small for an established EPL club.

So SD said he wants to develop the SEJ and SGT stands. I guess VR and the Rookery are locked in. Rookery has the ridiculous Origin housing and VR has the road behind it.

Now I think the owner is big on aesthetics, which is a good thing IMO. So, that tells me they will not be raising the roof level. You see some grounds, such as Liverpool, with one enormous stand engulfing all others. We won't go down this route I suspect.

I think all stands will be on the same visual level as we have currently, so that can only mean we will go deeper rather than higher, to achieve the extra 9,000 required seats.

There are various versions as to our current capacity, but by doing my own research I believe it's 21.201 (excluding 1054 restricted viewing seats).

Here is the breakdown:

Vicarage Road: 5796
The Rookery: 6960
Sir Elton John: 3728
Sir Graham Taylor: 5771 (less 1054 restricted viewing)

That comes to 22,255 (21,201)

So, to be able to use the restricted viewing, we'll need to level the pitch. I suspect this will be part of the project. If you level the pitch then there will be around a 6 foot drop at Vicarage Road from it's current level, so there must be some capacity for an extra two or three rows of seats there, which would be around 600 more seats. The 1054 restricted viewing seats would also be available in the SGT stand after levelling.

The SEJ is very small and can go back a lot deeper. I think you can easily at least double the capacity of that stand without too much trouble. There is a lot of space behind the stand. They will have to reduce the gradient in order to do this and retain the current roof level.

So if we manage to increase the SEJ stand to around 8,000, that would give us the following.

Vicarage Road: 6396
The Rookery: 6960
Sir Elton John: 8,000
Sir Graham Taylor: 5771

Total capacity: 27,127, which will be 2,873 short, which is still quite a lot.

So, I believe they will have to rebuild the SGT stand in order get to 30,000, which is something I do not think they would do at this stage. They could add another tier but that would raise the roof level and I do not think they would do that.

This project will probably go in three stages. Stage one is to increase the SEJ stand to 8,000, which will make capacity 25,473.

Stage two would be to level the pitch, add 600 seats at the front of VR and utilise the 1054 restricted SGT seats making capacity bringing capacity up to 27,127

Stage three will be to rebuild the SGT stand identical to the SEJ stand and have another 8,000 capacity. This will bring the stadium capacity up to 29,356 which is quite close to the project target. The style of the roof could also be changed at this point to be in keeping with the rest of the stadium.

This is the only way I can see this happening, and it will take a long time. At least three summers, but probably longer and only if EPL status is maintained. ​

 

No. But on this occasion the wall did collapse as a result of the application of pressure by Liverpool fans, strongly believed to be deliberate, and apparently, even at that time, something that was not unknown for them. It may have been a complete accident however. But like I say, how unlucky can you get.

 

Great post HB.. well thought out and researched. I wouldn't agree with all of it though.. as you'd expect.

Firstly im not 100% sure there's still a 6ft height difference end to end. I think its been reduced somewhat with previous pitch laying.. but then im not sure what it does stand at. It would be nice to know.
If you were to put extra rows in the front of the Vic stand that would also bring it forward.. not sure there's enough space to do that?
If you build back you invariably build up as well. I can't see that being avoided, whether an extra tier or extending a single tier i think the resulting stand will be taller. Not necessarily by much.. and there is scope with the SEJ stand because the current roof is taller that it needs be.. but i think it would be impossible to make those sort of changes and keep the roof level the same all round. Bearing that in mind.. and thinking about the houses behind, i cant see much more than an additional 3,000 seats on the East side and even that i think that might be pushing it. Pretty sure we were restricted to 5K seats in previous planning permissions?
I agree that aesthetics seem a high priority for the Pozzos (Italian style innit) but ironically their stadium in Italy is one that is famous for having one stand domineering over all..the famous Friuli arch (more of that in my next post) Would they really be that fussed about rooflines compared to extra income for the club?

All in all i struggle to see us ever reaching 30K at Vicarage Road. 25K yeah.. but i dont see where anymore than that is coming from without buying up either houses or land from the hospital. That is feasible of course but then you start adding up costs per seat after that, youd think it would be better to relocate, which i hope we never do.

 

Bringing a little piece of Friuli to Hertfordshire..

 

Thank you for your comments. Here's a photo which seems to be a recent one. There is a significant drop but it's probably not as much as 6 foot. More likely 4 feet. Which will probably be enough for two extra rows across the entire VR stand. Two rows would not come out as far as 3 of course, and I believe there is space to accommodate this.



The only prohibiting aspect of rebuilding the GT stand is cost verses benefit. If we are looking to add another 3,000 seats, then I doubt rebuilding a stand they've already invested in with new rooms and corporate facilities would really be feasible.

The only other option would be to add another tier by building behind the GT stand. This would raise the roof significantly though and would be much higher than the VR stand. Right now they pretty much look level with each other.

The Rookery roof is the same height but the housing that wraps around is a lot higher, which gives an illusion of a bigger stand height. I suppose you could go to this height for the GT stand, which would incorporate the extra tier.

You are correct about the approved application for the SEJ being 5,000, but I suspect this would be reapplied for and a greater capacity requested. If it's a shallow gradient, similar to the lower GT stand, then I believe we could create a two tier capacity stand, which overlaps a little, to get to 8,000 seats.

The roof height is the big problem in this though, and it does depend if the club are allowed to increase the height. I think the hospital side will be fine, but Occupation Road residents will be the big problem here.

Going by SD's comments At Our Place:
It really does make a difference, when Vicarage Road is rocking and the supporters are really behind the team, because invariably it pushes the team to a win, or at least a good performance. You see it here, particularly under floodlights in the evening.

We’ve engaged a company to conduct a survey to see how we can expand the stadium but still keep the aesthetic look we have now. They are looking at the Sir Elton John Stand and the Graham Taylor Stand and seeing what is the most effective way for us to expand.

We are already in dialogue with the council. While I won’t go into specific timelines, we hope that sooner rather than later we will be able to close on a plan.

We are looking at two scenarios, one taking us to 25,000 and one taking us to 30,000. I would like to take us to 30,000, because it puts us in that tier of clubs just outside the top six.

What we are going to do at the stadium, and our desire to increase the capacity, isn’t to generate new revenue, but to give us a technical advantage because on a matchday it does make a difference. The more numbers we can get the more likely we are going to make this a fortress.

The aesthetic comment, is a clue that the look of the stadium would not dramatically change. This does lead me to think that they would not raise the height of the roof.

However, I can see a possibility for both the SEJ and GT stands having curved roofs. This would mean the outer parts would be in line with existing surrounding structures, but the central part of the stands would be a lot higher.

I also like SD's reasoning behind expansion. This coincides with a long held view of mine. You have to have a decent sized stadium to be taken seriously.

I think it's a much easier sell to everyone, when you turn up on match day and have a 30,000 seater stadium to watch or play in. We will then look and feel the part. The small club tag would reduce, as how could a small club have a 30,000 seater stadium?

I'm glad this is not just a revenue based decision, and this is a change from previous thoughts of needing to get to 15,000 fans before building the East Stand was a viable proposition.

 

I do love a Steveohorn stadium imagining. I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely do like to see them.

 

The more I think about this, the more it's coming together.......well in MY head anyway.

On the east side of the ground, I believe we can build right back to the walls down Occupation Road. This would double the depth of the stand. By doing this you can decrease the gradient, which is currently quite steep, to be similar to the gradient of the lower GT stand. Aesthetically both stands would look in balance. With a shallow gradient you could double the seating capacity, especially if you have two tiers, with the top tier slightly overlapping the bottom one. You would not need to raise the height of the roof for this either.

On the west side, you can build a third tier, but the trick to pulling this off is to have an arched roof. So, the outer sides of the roof would be in line with the Rookery and VR stand, but it the middle you could place an entire tier on extra seating. I doubt the hospital would have any objections, as it mainly overlooks the hospital carpark.

I think the stadium would look really smart. A 6,000 and 7,000 seater stand behind the goals and two 8,000 seater stands pitch side, with the GT stand being a feature stand with an arched roof. 29,000 capacity, job done

 

At the end of this post I wager you will either perceive me a visionary or a complete lunatic. Here goes.....

We need to think about going 'down' before we go 'up'.

Step 1) Take up the pitch and roll it up like a carpet. Put to one side in the allotments for a bit whilst we.....
Step 2) Dig a hole 10 metres deep where the pitch was
Step 3) Picture in your minds a large concrete car park underground as common in many shopping complex. Build a similar structure in the 10 metre deep hole. Remembering to leave the top flat, 1 metre below the front row of the Rookery and thus 3 metres lower than the front of the Vic Road end.
Step 4) Put the pitch back on top (or share another stadium for a year and do this at the end)

Now here's the clever bit....
Step 5) Fill the concrete structure with a) a coach park b) toilet amenities for all stands c) bars d) a few cupboards, sheds etc we might need
Step 6) Bore two road sized exit tunnels out from under the pitch one going underneath Vicarage Road north to exit at the precinct and one to going south to exit near the hospital/Harwoods Road (I need to think about this second one a bit admittedly)
Step 7) All perimeter gangways, exit paths etc should now run under the edge of the pitch
Step 8) Extend all the gangways forward to go down to the under pitch structure

Then we can
Step 9) Add another 4 rows of seats to every stand at the front by building 4 steps down towards the pitch perimeter hoardings/wall (as there is now no need for the 2 metre wide gangway between the front row of seats and the perimeter hoardings). 4 rows of 6-700 seats is another circa 2.5k seats PLUS the restricted view seats in the lower GT etc coming back into view is another 1k so we are close to 25k seats all able to be in use. And a tidy compact stadium
Step 10) If required - build up and backwards from the SEJ stand. No need for amenities as this will provided under the pitch on that side of the ground so simply extend up and over Occupation Road. Thus a 30k stadium.

Easy - should take 9-12 months to complete

As to access issues:
a) For those of us in the new 8k seated Rookery we resolve the access issues as we now exit down and stroll out under the pitch, through the two new tunnels and pop up either in the Precinct or Harwoods Road
b) LGT people can do the same or exit as now
c) SEJ folk simply exit as is and use Occupation Road and Vicarage Road pretty much to themselves.
d) no coaches parked in Vicarage Road. Away fans can sit on their coaches underground until Cassio Road is clear and away they go

Stevo - could you please knock up a picture of this and see if it will work. Thanks.

 

Could this not be done to the EJ & GT stands?, and if it could, how much extra capacity would that give us in your opinion Stevo?

 

Our pitch is bigger than the regulation minimum, make it smaller and lots of scope to encroach the seats forward.

 

Creative thinking! But April fools was a few days ago.

 

O ye, of little faith

 

You'd make a good planning consultant.

(The only thing I didn't agree with is 9-12 months lead time to complete. There's a Polish guy in Garston who can bore 2 road size exit tunnels out in less than a week).

 

In the thirties they started to bore a tunnel from King Street to Vicarage Road but lack of funds held up completion. You can just see Watford Girls Grammar in the top right hand corner.

 

Posted this already, way back earlier in the thread - but this image was released without a lot of noise a couple of years ago.

The parts that makes it credible are the wall, shop and corner roof, as at the time they hadn't been built.

Of course, they may have completely changed their thinking as to what they want to do now. Not sure about the hot air balloons though?!

 

Here's my thinking for the GT stand with an arched roof. I don't think Bolton will miss the bit I borrowed from them.

 

Are they making it out of lego ?

 

Only if bankrupt Baz takes charge again!

 

Got it. You are probably right on the timescale and we can get it all done in a close season if we start before Brexit happens.

 

Excellent. Supports my new tighter timescale discussed with Hornet4ever.

I love it when a plan comes together.

Did it go all the way through to the old Scammels site do you know? We need to nab it for stadium access if it does before the Met line extension is back on (and off, and on, and off and on again).

 

Shouldn't this be in the politics section?

 

It's actually part of the (never completed) extensions to the Northern Line begun just before WW2 and abandoned after the war. The actual tunnels are between East Finchley and Crouch End on what was a surface railway which was to be converted to be part of the Northern Line as per the attached diagram. The intention (among a few enhancements) was to extend the tube beyond Edgware to Bushey Heath (at the roundabout junction of the A41 and A411). But Hitler and then the establishment of the Green Belt killed it. Those of us that can remember the Bus Works at Aldenham may know that it was originally going to be a train depot.



These are some of the abandoned arches for Brockley Hill Station still there next to the A41 in a field now used for car boot sales.

 

Yes , I've watched this and his other excellent videos. Without veering too far from Vicarage Road development, for those who are interested (and maybe Horns resident in Bushey), there's an interesting book called "Beyond Edgware" on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=beyond+edgware

I can imagine folks coming up to Bushey Heath station, thinking it's only a short walk to Vicarage Road, then finding out they had to catch the 311 bus into town (not the Harry Potter shuttle!) - much further away than Watford Met.

 

Yes that's correct. Also little known is that a war tunnel was built running from Marble Arch (following the length of the Edgware Road) to Edgware that would allow the monarchy/key members of parliament & war cabinet etc to escape covertly should London be attacked by land or air. From there they could have got to the old Airbases based in Stanmore or Northwood for a quick aerial getaway.

 

HB1 - where do you get 1054 restricted from? Not disputing it, but looking at your picture and the seating plan on the club website, I would say the maximum number of rows with restricted view is 5, and that only until the halfway line, so 100-120 seats. Or are they including seats that could be put in there if the pitch was level? I note that the number of rows comes down from 17 at the Rookery end to 12 plus gangway at the VR end.

 

Step 5(d) is a masterstroke, you can never have too many cupboards.

 

if they extension to the ground capacity is to gives us an advantage in games, wouldnt the first thing to do would be the removal of away fans from behind the goal at the Vicarage road end? Give them half the SEJ which probably would meean 20% of away fans wont turn up to claim their seats. As for getting a 30,000 seater stadium in place wont that just increase the running costs of the stadium that will be empty for 340 days of the year? would nt they be better off also looking at building non matchday revenue with better facilities behind the scenes. I am sure also any extension would also mean more space for income generative hospitality packages -

 

Fantastic. ( I was told those brick arches were an abandoned new road. You live and learn).

 

I picked up that piece of information directly from the club. I can't find reference online for that though, although I did read that a few years ago. Maybe on WDSport.

There is an area in the lower GT of just terrace with no seats bolted on at all. It's below the eye line, so is not easily seen. You have to physically go to that part of the ground to see it.

 

Surprisingly excellent thread.

 

No reason why not. Can't believe i hadn't thought of it before!

Here, inspired by HB's Macron Vic rendering, i've taken the footprints of the West Stand at the KC stadium.. which holds 11,000. It was a bit hard to scale it right and i had to scale down the new SEJ stand quite a bit.. and should have made it even smaller really. As you can see its overhanging Occupation Road, though the roof could overhang the road somewhat.
I'd guesstimate this could give us near to double the SEJ cap and a further 5-6K for a new GT stand. Thus reaching over the 30K target.
The surprising thing was that by curving the stand on the hospital side it doesn't touch any of the existing buildings.. which a conventional oblong stand certainly would.
If you are reading this Mr.Duxbury or Pozzo this is the way forward (as theyve probably already considered anyway)

 

Wow.. now you're asking!

Tell you what though, it's been done before. When Monaco rebuilt the Louis II in the first part of the 80's they dug down and built a 4 storey car park with 1700 spaces under the pitch. They also have the club offices down there.. and a conference center.. sports center with swimming pools.. and a 3,700 seat basketball stadium under one of the stands! All this was built mostly on land reclaimed from the sea. I guess there isnt much room in Monaco on which to build.

http://www.asmonaco.com/en/article/stade-louis-ii-presentation-62962.html