Xisco Sacked

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by foxywfc, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    IMO Gracia was sacked too late if anything. The form at the end of the previous season and the manner of the cup final defeat should have seen him gone in hindsight. I’m aware not everyone shares that view though.

    As for Ranieri, I think there’s a difference between setting us up defensively - and making us more defensive minded and quick on the break. I think he’ll do the latter in games we should win and the former in those we shouldn’t.

    Whereas Xisco set us up far too attacking. Worked last season when we should be reasonably expected to batter those in front of us. But the opposition this season is levels above the Championship - yet Xisco’s lack of tactical awareness meant we have just gone in with the same mentality as last season. Kamikaze stuff really.

    For me Ranieri is someone who probably sits between Xisco and Ivic in terms of style - and that’s maybe just what we need.
     
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  2. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Whereas that’s true in recent games, especially Wolves and Newcastle, the funny thing is he seemed to do quite the opposite at Brighton in the first half and much of the second, trying a counterattacking game against a side that aren’t that attacking (they create a fair few chances but aren’t as open as Leeds, don’t have much pace and aren’t that potent in front of goal). At Leeds it was hard to discern what the team/Xisco was trying to do either way, it was that shambolic. All this stemmed from someone who sadly appeared to have little clue at this level, either being too inflexible or adjusting his tactics in the wrong way.
     
  3. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Yep Xisco's tactics were chaotic. It was either all or nothing. There was no subtlety or cunning.

    Just a shyt manager unfortunately. But how the hell did our shrewd owners not see this? Surely they weren't so bowled over by a 2nd place finish last year that they were blind to his limitations?

    A truly bizarre sequence of events, yet again.
     
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  4. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I notice the Watford Observer have suggested its high time Gino comes out and explains why the managerial merry-go-round is quite so prolific at our club.
     
  5. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I bet he'd be quaking in his boots if he'd ever heard of the newspaper.
     
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  6. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    There's more chance of Xisco getting another Premier League job than Gino talking about our head coach turnover.
     
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  7. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that that is TOTAL bolloccks. It's a laughable suggestion. Honestly. Moon-man stuff.
     
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  8. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Least he noticed us.

    Did some PL preview before the season on his new night time program and one team didn’t get a mention ..

    Even as candidates for relegation.

    I bet he wants other managers to be sacked though like OGS and Arteta ..
     
  9. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    There are plenty of good reasons to turn us down, being mates with the ex-boss is not one lol
     
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  10. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    In theory I think Gracia could have worked had we given him a chance after the cup final, but the fact that we signed Sarr showed we were aiming to go in a different direction to his tried and tested 4-2-2-2, so it's rather puzzling we gave him those 4 games!
     
  11. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    @a19tgg

    You are a total mind reader. You posted this way back in April, after we lost to QPR,

    He would be an absolute disaster in the premier league, when you have to think about what threat the opposition will pose in every game you play amd adapt accordingly.

    That's pretty impressive.
     
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  12. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    I don't think any of us thought he'd be a good Prem manager back then (if any of us were even thinking of the Prem then!)
     
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  13. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Whilst my genius knows no bounds, it is perhaps only surpassed by my modesty.
     
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  14. hornetfan

    hornetfan Academy Graduate

    "Ranieri was always the front-runner. Diego Martinez, the former Granada head coach who has spent time in the UK working on his English and watching Premier League football, was linked but a source close to the Spaniard says Watford didn’t approach him. The highly regarded 40-year-old also has links with Leeds director of football Victor Orta, who may need a replacement for Marcelo Bielsa at the end of this season. Working in England is certainly on his radar." (Adam Leventhal in the Athletic)
     
  15. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    That was actually after Luton away, but it wouldn't surprise me if he'd said that after QPR, because Mark Warburton (who is one of the few Championship managers capable of outsmarting opponents with inferior players) schooled him that night, and it was another indication that he'd be shown up at the top level, even if it was before the Deeney injury and formation change.

    Though Wolves remains the only league defeat at home since then, let's hope Ranieri can keep the Vic a fortress, all those top 4 opponents coming shortly in quick succession will be a real test!
     
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  16. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

  17. Bubble

    Bubble Wise Oracle

    Forgot about this. What a c**t he was and still is actually.
     
  18. Eric IS Bananman

    Eric IS Bananman Academy Graduate

    I think this quote from Xisco sums up why he had to go, it's as if he was a pundit on Soccer Saturday or Talk*****...he genuinely couldn't see the rot setting in. The team isn't a disaster, his lack of gameplan, tactics and ability to change a game with substitutions or formations was the disaster. After his substitutions, we got worse in every game.

    Competely oblivious to the fact that if Newcastle and Leeds could finish it would have been more than 4.

    Any sympathy or goodwill is being eroded by his lack of awareness. He obviously thought he had loads of credit in the bank because of promotion.

    "It was a surprise. We had won, drawn and then lost to Leeds. It's not like we hadn't been winning for five or six weeks, or that the team is a disaster and they'd put four past us. I didn't expect it."
     
  19. I Blame Bassett

    I Blame Bassett Squad Player

    Never underestimate the stupidity of coaches.
    I have one who thinks it's acceptable to wander off court and leave children unattended,to interrupt colleague's lessons as he has nothing to do,to repeat the same drivel on every student irrespective of age, ability or game style. To confuse shouting at pupils for teaching. To leave equipment on courts and beakers in the coach store. To fail to reply to emails and provide the necessary data to volunteers. To continue to coach players who haven't paid a membership fee for two years, leaving a volunteer to chase them so he can take a fee .... continued page 94.
     
  20. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well it wasn't about the result as the club statement said but the performances.

    I suspect had we nicked a draw with Kabsele's goal being allowed he would have still gone.

    Ranieri has in all likelihood been lined up for weeks - not as O'Hara suggested we'd gone for him as if he 'd just com available!

    Guy on 5live who is actually an expert on Italian football said they probably just kept Munoz on as a way of saying thanks and adhering to the typical British culture of not really sacking managers (but pundits spending week and months saying that they ought to be!)
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
  21. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I think Gino will have learned that in the future he should just go with his gut. Keeping Munoz on was a nice thing to do but he’s got the same amount of stick for actually giving him a shot and then eventually letting him go, as if he’d just got rid of him in the summer. Especially as we had things like the Euros going on so it would’ve got buried anyway.
     
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  22. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    Have to say, for all the complaints about how the media don't care about us at all/things that happen here don't make any waves, this story has really been picked up on - perhaps it's something to do with the fact that it came going into the start of an international break so there's no actual football being played, but alongside the Sky Sports manager graphics and the articles in the Guardian and the Telegraph and Talksport's various loud embarrassments, even Tortoise have made us the subject of their Playmaker podcast today: https://podfollow.com/1579093092/episode/44de2d5625fa2e417136842b0366eb6d72302864/view.
     
  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I'm not so sure he does learn. The same mistakes are constantly repeated at Watford. But it's all very odd. With Gino it's 70% genius, 30% lunacy. It's a strange combo. You're either brilliant or you're useless....it's rare to have both traits in one person.

    We tend to focus on the negative, and those are the things we find emotive. It's like when we lose, the aftermath of pages on this forum is far bigger than when we win. But for balance, I'm going to look at both sides...good and the bad.

    Just going over the last 12 months or so, I've seen the 70-30 combo in full swing. We hire Ivic (and I don't consider that a bad error at the time). He seemed to be a promising young coach. Once it became clear no one could stand him, he was quickly removed. The next part was genius. We hire a complete rookie no one had ever heard of, but he had the characteristics Gino felt would inspire a talented squad, and it worked fantastically well. Xisco won 17 of his 25 league games to ensure promotion.

    Subsequently, this is where the lunacy kicks in. Gino must have known, with all his experience of operating in the Premier League, what qualifications you need for that league. You're competing against the very best coaches in Europe and you continue with someone who doesn't even have the correct qualifications to manager in the EPL without special dispensation? It was never going to work, so why kid yourself it would?

    Then to the recruitment. Gino has employed a decent technical director in Giaretta by the looks of it. He does very well in assembling a squad for virtually a zero net spend. That's that another tick in the genius box, but the lunacy kicks in when they think only 4 CB's (who are largely of Championship standard) would be sufficient. An incredible oversight and underinvestment in the defence once more. If they knew they were going to be short, why did they sell Wilmot or loan out Pollock? It's all very strange.

    These conflicts in joined-up thinking crop up everywhere with Watford.

    I think Gino is an excellent owner, but he keeps shooting himself in the foot. It's why we get so far, but fall short. The model must be wrong with all this hiring and firing. It has to be, unless Watford's strategy is to just go along with the "new managerial bounce" to get them through a season, which I don't think is the plan.

    The genius aspect gets us to the Premier League, but the lunacy keeps us hovering on the precipice of relegation when I don't think it needs to be like this. Maybe more priority has to be given to the spine of the side and the quality of head coach. Spend some money on good solid Premier League level central defenders. These players tend to stick around for many years, so it's a worthwhile investment. Brighton, Burnley and Palace have had their backline players around for years, and they're all decent. Watford should be able to do this too.

    We can do the tough bit, by attracting players like Deulofeu, Pereyra, Sarr & Richarlison. Getting players of this quality or potential has to be a tough sell for a club like Watford, but we seem to do it regularly. But the more mundane or obvious flaws in the set up we seem to struggle with. It's this 30% failing Gino has to eradicate. If he manages to do that, we really could be a solid Premier League club knocking on the door of Europe EVERY season.
     
  24. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    It’s clear Gino places no real value in managers, and also clearly hates having to pay them off. I think this is a false economy though. In football terms the cost of the manager is a fraction of the player transfer fees and wages, even if you’re paying your manager a lot in manager terms, yet they have the biggest impact on results. We always go for out of work managers, who are generally out of work for a reason. I think he needs to rethink this and actually put his hand in his pocket and pay for a decent manager for once. If it all goes wrong then sure it’s going to cost him money, but if it goes right it’s going to save him an awful lot more in the long run.
     
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  25. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I agree. You tend to get what you pay for. I don't think Gino puts too much faith in a head coach which I believe is a mistake. I think he sees them as someone who just trains the squad, prepares the team for the next game and makes the necessary tactical tweaks during the match as well as be the public face of Watford in the media. It kind of stops there. I understand the simplicity of that, but Gino really needs to trust the guy he's employed far more. However, apart from a select few, I've not disagreed with any of the past dismissals, so this tells me, very few of the coaches we've hired are really all that good. In many cases, coaching Watford in the Premier League has been the pinnacle of their career. Very few have actually gone on to greater things after we sack them. So, that's very telling. We're not hiring the best coaches in the first place. We're undervaluing what a good head coach can do and don't really trust them when things go wrong. That attitude has to change.

    For the first time, we've now hired a coach with a glittering CV in terms of clubs managed. Ok, much of his career has been fairly mediocre, but he's a steady hand on the tiller. The more I think of it, he's probably a very good choice a newly promoted club. But, the next 10 games will be tough and Gino has to understand this, not just sack him if we lose 7 of the next 9, which could easily happen. I think in Ranieri you can trust he knows what he's doing, so you've got to back him through a predicted bad run (if it happens of course).

    Ranieri won't be around for long. He's a revolving door manager at a revolving door club, but it would be nice to think Watford and Ranieri could actually be a very good fit for each other, and the sacking trend stops. Maybe this is the time that will actually happen.....for the remainder of this season at least.
     
  26. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I agree with everything you say, the problem is can a leopard change its spots? Will Gino suddenly reevaluate his strategy? I’m not so sure.

    Whilst you can say that in the main, his methods work, the managerial appointments have been getting more and more erratic. QSF/Mazzari/Silva/Gracia all made sense at the time and had some sort of acumen. Although I think you can say Ivic was a more considered appointment along the lines of those four, he was sandwiched between QSF again, Pearson, Munoz and now Ranieri. QSF again was just madness, Pearson was a Hail Mary, Munoz turned out to be inspired, but you won’t get away with that type of appointment every time if you keep trying it, now Ranieri.

    Although his methods have worked in the main up until now, I think there is a definite pattern of increasing desperation emerging, and I don’t see that as being sustainable much longer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
  27. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    By “trust”, do you mean Gino should let the Head Coach have a hand in recruitment of players, or do you just mean he shouldn’t sack them so quickly? I don’t see how it can be the latter if you have agreed with the sackings.
     
  28. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    The trust refers to this particular appointment, and the difficulty of his first 9 or 10 games. I think Gino has to trust Ranieri has the ability to turn a possible bad run around.....and yes, I would like Ranieri included in the discussion on which type of players are required in the next window.
     
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  29. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    I agree that Ranieri will not be around for the long term, or probably even the medium term (outside the relativity that means seeing out a season is 'medium term' for us) but I also really don't see Gino determining much at all from the next seven games, or Claudio being at any significant risk as a result of them.

    Gino is often inexplicable, but fundamentally will be just as aware as everyone else of the insanity of this upcoming run of games - it was clearly some kind of factor in the decision to dismiss Xisco when he did.

    I really do not think that Ranieri has been brought in with the idea of being a desperate firefighter whose job is to magically turn it all around with unexpected swashbuckling wins from the off, and that's not really where we are as a club in this moment either - I think he's been brought in to provide a foundation and effectively 'reset' the season. The saving grace of Xisco's foray into the Prem is that we somehow have seven points from our comedic set of performances - not zero, or one.

    As long as we see coherent ideas on the pitch and players who look like they are capable of functioning as professional footballers again, I honestly don't see any further judgement coming until well into next year at a minimum.
     
  30. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Agreed. I think even if we get absolutely pummelled in the next 7 games, they are more likely to look at their summer business rather than point fingers at Ranieri.

    I think Ranieri will be here until the summer at least. I don’t think he will go before that. He’s been friends with the Pozzo’s for 30+yrs. I imagine there’s a lot of goodwill there. Personally, I think he will be here next season as well if we stay up. They may even allow him the option of staying if we go down - but I imagine Ranieri won’t be keen on Championship football.

    Either way, by our standards, it’s my opinion that Ranieri might actually be a settled appointment.
     
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  31. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    Ranieri will stay for the full two years as he has to lead us to a glorious title win next season.








    In the Championship.
     
  32. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I guess the ultimate dream/fantasy is one that pans out like Sampdoria, he keeps us up, stabilises us the following season and then hopefully Gino can put some proper thought into a more long term manager.
     
  33. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Haha, but in all seriousness, even if he does a decent job but we still go down a la the last former Leicester manager we had, if he isn't axed by then, I highly doubt he'll have the energy to go for a long hard slog in the Championship!
     
  34. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Good post.

    Nice to see some balanced , well thought out analysis , for once .
     
  35. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Yeah, if he has any future as a manager even if it's not managing at the top level (and I imagine there are plenty of tougher jobs in say, the Segunda División than getting Watford promoted) he has to be able to step back and evaluate what he did more critically. I await his next managerial job(s) with interest if there are any, what he achieved in the Championship may have got a few clubs interested, rather than him possibly being the worst manager to manage in the Premier League.
     
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