Who Stays, Who Goes, Who Needs Signing?

A lot of variables there, the midfield could be really good, the defence is proven at Championship level, but Okoye is an unknown and there probably aren't that many goals among the forwards, but what do you expect the Pozzos to do, spend money in the Championship?

 

The Guardian and The Athletic have confirmed it.

That's good enough.

 

But it’s 2 years since that defence did well in the Championship. And one of them (WTE) was iffy beyond words and hasn’t played for a long time. Masina also hasn’t played in a long time. And one of the better ones in that season, Femenia, you’re saying to get rid of?

I just can’t agree with a squad, even if mildly realistic, that keeps that many horribly average or worse players in it, purely on past achievements at that level.

And yes, I think we will have a bigger income this summer than we did last time we went down - so I do expect a moderate level of spending this summer. If we can get £40m in for Sarr, Dennis and a few other squad players, I think it’s possible we spend £10m-£15m on players.

As others have said, we won’t offload all the dross in one summer due to contracts etc. so it’s to be expected we have to put up with some of them for another 12 months. I imagine Cleverley, Cathcart will stay for sure.

But I read the Mirror article this morning with interest - yes it was written by Mike Walters, a known Watford fan. But the need for a reset is now not just word of mouth around 50% of the Watford fanbase. Outsiders are seeing it too.

 

So neither club have?

 

Genuinely wouldn’t give a sh*t if none of them walked into pre-season training.

 

Not you as well.

I never said they had.

 

£10m for Dennis would be absolutely horrendous business, even by our standards.

Yes, he's greedy, his decision making is often off and he had a poor patch, but the man has 10 goals and 15 assists in 30 games playing for the worst team in the division. A goal or assist every other game playing for utter dross like us.

Add to that he's young (potential to improve that poor decision making and stop being so greedy at time), lightning quick, proven himself a good finisher and decent dribbler, good movement in the box. If we only made about a £6m profit on him, even with relegation, it'd be beyond a shambles.

Dennis should be going for more than Sarr, or at least a similar amount. He's the better player and the player who has already shown and proven more at this level.

 

In terms of who won't or more importantly shouldn't be here next season...

Not good enough/experts in failure/OAP/spineless wimps who just need to go list:

Foster
Cleverley
Cathcart
Kucka
Rose
Femenia
Troost
Bachmann
Sema
Gosling

Will almost certainly be sold or loaned out:

Sarr
Dennis
Pedro
Cucho
Kamara

Basically, the vast majority of this awful, ageing, weak minded squad needs clearing out. Unfortunately, I imagine the majority on the first list will stay and continue to stink the place up for yet another year.

 

TBF I've not said I'd have any of the dross who have been here for ages as starters, there's a difference between the likes of Sierralta and Louza (who might be off anyway) who for whatever reason haven't had it all their own way this season, and the likes of Cleverley and Cathcart, I don't see any reason why those two can't be absolute stars in the league below. In any case, if Samir goes (which I expect he will), I'd like us to bring in another CB (unless Kabasele stays, but I reckon he goes as he's probably that bit more saleable than the other dross)

 

Dennis has certainly had a better season than Sarr, although Sarr is a similar age and has been playing at a high level for longer. Reckon it'll be £15-20m for Dennis and we'll more or less break even on Sarr

 

No I agree.

But it’s keeping them around as backup that’s meant they invariably end up playing at least 30-40 games a season between them. Remove the option of them being backup and then we don’t have to rely on them being dross on a regular basis. As we have seen this season!

 

Would be amazed if anyone wants to pay £40m for Sarr. I’d be fairly shocked if anyone wants to give us £30m to be honest.

 

£25m for Sarr and £20m for Dennis absolute max, both possibly/likely lower though. They stand out in our Watford bubble because the rest of our players are complete and utter shyte, but they’re both woefully inconsistent and wouldn’t warrant any club paying any more. Dennis has scored some good goals but he’s equally done as much damage as the good he’s done, yesterday was a great example, scored a goal but we still lost and that was partially because he was awful and doesn’t know when to/doesn’t want to pass to a team mate, so we can attempt to break an offside trap.

 

I don't think we can call Dennis woefully inconsistent with a goal contribution every other game (and some very good goals and assists at that).

He has the tools to be very successful at this level and has basically smashed it in his first season in this league playing alongside a load of complete and utter dross.

He has his faults and things to learn/areas to develop, but in reality he's had a very good season in a terrible side. It's more impressive considering how bad we are, not less so because he stands out more.

 

We certainly are vulnerable when it comes to getting a good fee for Dennis in terms of requiring another team, who are already interested in him enough to be prepared to pay the aforementioned good fee, to have a coaching and scouting/analytics team who will once again collectively think 'I can fix him!'.

Quite a few factors will have to fall into place simultaneously for that to happen. He has the talent, undoubtedly - but will less basket-case set ups be prepared to risk the enigmatic behaviour, selfishness, and possible team disruption that all comes with it on top?

 

I think he is the definition of woefully inconsistent, his goals haven’t actually come every other game, they mostly came in a big purple patch and then we had nothing from him for a long while. There is absolutely no guarantee any other club can iron out his faults which have been present throughout his entire career so far, hence why his price will reflect that.

 

Question marks over his attitude have tellingly arisen however, as predicted.

And whilst he is still popping up with a goal now and then, also question marks over his consistency. Most of his output this season has come in one particularly fruitful purple patch.

Woefully inconsistent? Nah, not really. But ‘inconsistent’ is a close to a fair description of his season overall I’d say. I’ll still be very surprised if anyone decides he’s worth more than £12m-£15m. I wouldn’t be totally shocked if we tried to hold on to him either.

 

Can't be ****ed working out exactly what 'break even' means with Sarr, but I think £30m for him is realistic enough, he was coveted long before we signed him, and he's certainly had his moments with us, it's not as if this period of bad form is what he's always been like

 

Put Dennis in a squad with a clear tactical identity & plan, good players and a good manager and he will flourish.

I can see by looking at him he needs an arm round him, needs to be made to feel important, needs stability and he doesn't need the pressure of having shyte teammates, if he could share the burden in a quality side, he'll be a great asset.

 

It's clear that he's reverted to the mean, he was never as good as his purple patch suggested, but never as bad as his barren run suggested neither, but in any case, 10 goals (and counting) in a **** team is no mean feat, we've seen far worse players who have been bought for around the £20m mark (including a certain 'striker' at QPR...)

 

But despite those faults and areas he needs to and could well improve in, he's still got 10 goals and 5 assists in his first season in the toughest division in the world, and could possibly still finish with more. He plays for Watford, of course he's going to lack consistency. If he was much more consistent he'd be playing for someone like City or Liverpool and be doubling those numbers.

Regardless of purple patches or bad runs of form, the fact remains that an average of a goal contribution every other game in your first season at this level, playing for a terrible side, is impressive. Combine that with the fact that he has attributes a lot of teams want in a player in that pace and ability to beat a man, and anything less than £15m would be absolutely horrendous.

 

I've said this before in other threads, and have an ongoing discussion with Jumbolina and a19tgg over it, but PL clubs have been happy to pay much more than that for as or more unproven and "inconsistent" wingers of similar age in recent years - e.g Dan James, Benrahma and Buendia. Dennis is easily in their quality bracket and they went for £25mil, £22mil and £33mil respectively.

Anything less than £20mil for him would be a steal and the Pozzos would indeed be well within their rights to reject such a bid and hold on to him as we did the previous relegation with Sarr if that was all on the table.

 

I don’t think Dennis will flourish. He didn’t score for cologne, didn’t score in his last season at Bruges, and has not scored for Nigeria. So that’s pretty consistent. 23 games without a goal across 3 teams. Yet he has scored a few for us somehow

 

No way are Benrahma or Buendia less, or even as inconsistent. Both have been more consistent in English football than Dennis, admittedly with more time though.

As far as I’m aware, none of those players you mention have known attitude problems or have been frozen out at previous clubs.

I’m not suggesting he’s not worth £20m. I’m saying his best version is worth that and a bit more….but his worst version is worth considerably less. And I don’t think clubs enjoy that kind of risk when they are spending big sums.

 

Buendia has had consistently much worse stats in the PL than Dennis has managed in this season. He's also a year older than him. Even a lackluster Dennis would appear to be able to match Buendia's output at this level, but he's shown this season that when he has sufficient motivation he can be even better.

Benrahma is 2 years older than Dennis and his stats this season are similar while playing for a better side, and has also had barren spells this season. He'd also only ever played in the Champ when Spam bought him and Dennis would also destroy that league.

James had a decent first season at Utd but was as bad last year as Dennis has been even at his worst for us.

When considering the risks as you indicate, Dennis is no more than those players were imo. Most transfers come with an element of risk. If he had hardly any risk or had another season similar to this one then a fee would rather be nearer to something like the £45mil Pool paid for Jota than the £20-25mil I think is currently likely (you do at least in your post acknowledge something similar to this in your reply).

Also, from looking at what he's done so far and considering his supposed attitude problem, I think playing in more prestigious games for a better club would keep his motivation levels up - he's tended to perform well against big clubs whether with us or with Bruges. His attitude also hasn't been quite as bad as it has supposedly has been in the past, perhaps cos he's maturing slightly or he feels like he's more where he belongs/has something worthwhile to play for.

 

Fair enough, not going to get into a dragged out debate over it. I have one opinion and you have another.

This summer will mostly likely inform us who was more accurate.

 

Goalkeepers: Okoye, Elliot, Angelini

Right Back: Ngakia, Kiko (Possibly Ebosele).

Left Backs: Kamara, Morris.

Centre Backs: Kabasele, Sierralta, Pollock, Samir, Cathcart (for versatility and backup), Troost-Ekong, as he offers some experience and leadership and isn't a complete liability in the Championship.

Central midfielders: Imran Louza, Sissoko (still another year on his contract, I believe?) Asprilla, Cleverley, Kucka, Kayembe.

Right-wingers: Zinkenagel, Hungbo, Baah,

Left Wingers: Sema, Kalu

Forwards: J.P, Cucho Hernandez, King, Fletcher

 

I’d be amazed if we break even on Sarr. Will lose £10m at least. Dreadful business.

 

With Derby now confirmed as relegated I’d like for Rooney to be our new manager. I think he’s done a fantastic job with everything the club has gone through this season and they will only have 5 contracted players come the start of next season.

 

Those central midfield options are rancid. Think we need two starters to come in.

And King might not want to play in the Championship but he's had two relegations in the last three seasons and barely played the other one. Can't see his form being enough to convince any Premier League side to bring him in (unless someone like L*ton go up and we release him on a free).

 

Contract until 2026 too. Think we could get somewhere between £15-20m.

 

That’s all very well, but we won’t get more then £20m for Dennis so I don’t understand the point you’re trying to argue. Naming players that cost more than he’ll sell for isn’t going to change that.

 

I feel sick.

 

Their takeover seems to be going through - and he’s also quoted as saying he wants to stay.

 

Wasn't there a thread about him as a possible unknown talent about 10 years ago? Who was that forum proud virgin? He might have suggested it.