Where Did It All Go Wrong? What Needs To Change?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by TomWatfordFC, Apr 20, 2023.

  1. TomWatfordFC

    TomWatfordFC Reservist

    I’ll preface this by saying that I’m not normally one for long posts, but we’re at the point where a novel could be written about our mistakes!

    Where did it all go wrong?

    Unpaid bonuses – I won’t pretend to know all the details surrounding the unpaid bonuses at the end of the 18/19 season, but it clearly signalled the start of a breakdown in trust between the players and the club. If I had met certain performance targets and then not been paid the bonus for reaching those targets, I would begin to look for employment elsewhere. Players don’t have it so easy – they can only move at certain times, and only if both the selling and purchasing club agree a deal. So, every player moving on was not an option. This left 30-odd players stuck playing for a club they didn’t trust – why would they put in 110% each week if they knew at any point the club might not pay them in accordance with the terms of their contract? Off the top of my head only Cathcart and Cleverley remain from that season, but players talk, so even if most of the current squad weren’t directly affected by the situation, it is likely in the back of their minds.

    Managerial merry-go-round – Once again we must go back to the summer of 2019, the turning point in Watford’s fortunes. At any other club, a manager who had just reached the FA Cup final for the second time in the club’s history, and recorded a record Premier League points total, would have plenty of goodwill in the bank. Not at Watford though, where those achievements grant you 4 games to perform. Sacking Javi was a monumental mistake. To then follow it up by appointing Quique Sanchez Flores begs belief. Our approach to managers is the single biggest failure of the current regime. There is zero continuity between appointments. The players know that if they are underperforming, they won’t be the ones to pay the price. If you knew that your boss was going to leave in a couple of months, and their replacement would completely change all the work required of you, would you be committed to the current cause?

    Haphazard recruitment – This has just been wrong on so many levels. For years there was a complete disregard of the defence. We repeatedly rely on or sign players who are ridiculously unfit or whose legs have gone. There is a complete disconnect between the head coach and the board when deciding on transfers, most recently evidenced by the failure to sign players in the positions Bilic requested. Then there was the ludicrous Sarr deal – at what point did Gino think that spending 90% of our transfer budget on a winger, when we had a manager who didn’t use wingers, was a good idea? At no other club would that deal have been sanctioned.

    Gino is in bed with the wrong people – The club needs to immediately sever all ties with Mogi Bayat. It is a disaster waiting to happen. With the number of deals he has worked on for the club, it is only a matter of time before we end up on the wrong side of a lawsuit or criminal investigation. It is farcical that one man, under investigation in multiple countries, has been paid millions in agent and intermediary fees, and in return we have received dud after dud.

    The culture – I’m not looking to make excuses for the players, but the culture of the club is toxic, and not one to promote player development and success on the pitch. The cause? Player recruitment. At any well run club, they do their due diligence on any new signings. They speak to former teammates and coaches. They find out about the player’s friends and family. As a club we either haven’t done our due diligence, or those responsible are completely incompetent. Time after time we sign players that other clubs are desperate to offload (Dennis, Rose, King, Hoedt), or players who end up breaking various rules (Gray, Success). There is no other club in English football that signs ‘bad eggs’ on such a consistent basis. Additionally, there is a fundamental lack of leadership in the dressing room. Not a single player in our current squad is a leader. This is another complete failure from a recruitment perspective. When a squad is put together, we need to look beyond just technical ability. We need to strike a balance of personalities, and ensure that any new signings won’t disrupt dressing room harmony (if it has been achieved).

    Lack of communication with supporters – Vicarage road gets emptier by the week, and who can blame anyone who decides to stop going to games? Gino doesn’t care what we think of him, but he does care about his bank balance. The only effective way to protest the current ownership is to cut off their money. Then Gino might have to talk. The lack of discourse between the owner and the fans has gone on for far too long. Any attempts at communication from the club have been PR own goals. Supporters are quickly losing faith (if they have any left at this point), and we need answers from the people at the top of the club. Until that happens, I expect more and more people to vote with their feet.

    What needs to change?

    It would probably be quicker to discuss what doesn’t need to change rather than what does, but I will attempt to put together a simple list of actions that need to be taken to return the club back to anything like what it should be.

    1. We need to choose a manager, and stick with them. We were promised this when Edward’s was appointed, but clearly, they were just words. Now that Manga is supposedly in charge of head coach appointments/sackings, we may see a change here, but my worry is that Gino will waltz in at any point and overrule him.

    2. Our recruitment policy needs a complete overhaul. We need to sign more homegrown talent, making much better use of the EFL. We need to complete a comprehensive due diligence process for every new signing. All signings need to be signed off by both the technical director and the head coach – these two people, whoever they are at the time, need to be working in lockstep. Players need to be signed with two things in mind – do they fit the style the manager is looking to play with, and how will they fit into the dressing room?

    3. We need to rid ourselves of Mogi Bayat.

    4. Gino needs to communicate with the fans immediately. We need explanations for what has happened, and a detailed plan of how the club will progress going forward.

    You may have noticed that in all this discussion I purposefully avoided mentioning the financials. They are clearly not in a good position, but if we follow some of the steps outlined above, we will certainly see some monetary savings.
     
    Watfordftw, Muggins_77, vecro and 9 others like this.
  2. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I think it changed the day we beat Wolves to get to the cup final. After that point it's been a mess.
    We had a chance of European qualification at that point but barely picked up a point for the rest of the season
    Duxbury and Pozzo thought we had made it and we went out and spent £32m on one player. Ignore the fact we didn't play with wingers, Watford as a club should never spend that much on one player.
    We ignored the need to upgrade the defence
    We sacked Gracia after just four games of the following season. Of all the sackings we've made this one made the least sense
    Bayat. Incredibly this bloke was at the game last night with Pozzo.
    The plan we had when Pozzo first bought the club has disappeared and now I'm not sure anybody could say what we're trying to do
    I'm not that bothered about Pozzo talking to fans but somebody needs to, show some respect to the fans of the club
    I would like to know the full truth about the bonuses but not sure we will ever be told and also what happened to Pearson
     
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  3. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Brilliant thread. Thank you @TomWatfordFC for taking the time to write all that. Cannot really disagree with any of that. It's the hard facts and full stops that the club need to look at. Whether they do or not remains to be seen.
     
    TomWatfordFC likes this.
  4. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Gracia was sacked because he didn't pick the new toy he didn't want that Gino had spent all close season chasing down. The fact that we did not win any of the first 4 games meant he was sacked very early in the season; I have no doubt that as soon as we lost 3 on the bounce he would have gone even if we were 14th in the league.
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  5. Harrybassetthater

    Harrybassetthater Academy Graduate

    We need to stop paying ridiculous transfer fees and higher salaries than our finances can afford. I’m envious at the way Luton have progressed from the National league to the play-offs (at least) on the back of sound finances. It shows it can be done. I look on with incredulity at some of the ‘small fees’ that the likes of Brighton pay for quality players. There are serious problems with the whole structure of our club. I was happy when the Pozzos came in but we are no better off than when they arrived position wise and the small amount of millions of pounds of debt. I do hope they sell up. The one good legacy of their tenure is the upgrades to the stadium but I worry that this could be lost to creditors the way the Pozzos run their finances. A very sad episode in the history of the club I have supported for 60 odd years.
     
  6. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    The unpaid bonuses was clearly the main turning point, I agree with most of what you are saying however in the case for Javi Gracia, yes he did get us to a cup final but we were humiliated, also the league performances weren't great for most of the season, the 4 wins one the trot at the beginning of the season kept us in a higher position than we would have been otherwise. I think that Gracia should have gone in the summer of 2019.

    The second one to not make sense in hindsight was Munoz, the players clearly liked him despite his limitations and given what followed over the remainder of the season, he couldn't have done worse that the two OAPs that followed.
     
    Malteser2 and Harrybassetthater like this.
  7. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    Admitting there is a problem, deciding exactly what it is, followed by the solution and we might have a chance, however we have been on a rollercoaster for the last 10 years, I wouldn’t expect the circus to stop anytime soon!
     
  8. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Correct.

    Correct.

    It only made little sense because it should have been done in the summer. He seemed a busted flush along with the players from the Wolves game on. He's not been good since leaving us either.

    We did play with wingers though - we were often having to use Hughes as a right winger/right midfielder ffs. We did actually need a player of Sarr's profile - the problem was we neglected to also sufficiently improve the defence and CF position at the same time.

    The plan the club had when the Pozzos first bought the club was both clear and simple to implement - in that it was largely us benefitting from the high quality of player being under-utilised at Pozzos' other clubs. That we were able to easily bring these players on board gave us a clear competitive advantage vs other Championship clubs.

    However, with Granada now gone and the quality of Udinese's team falling to the point whereby they often make do with our cast-offs, that competitive advantage has gone and we've not really managed to make up for it.
     
  9. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    There are so many issues, but if you had to point to one it was spending all that money on Sarr.

    I do get that as a small club with limited resources player trading is essential to supplementing our income and giving us a chance of outcompeting other teams, but Gino has it completely arse about face.

    The vast majority of teams recruit first and foremost with their first team in mind, if a player comes into the team in a needed position and performs well then they’ll automatically attract the attention of bigger clubs whilst simultaneously helping the team.

    The premier league prize money is £100m+, there is absolutely no way Gino could ever earn as much as that through player trading, even if we sold Sarr for double what he paid.

    And yet his focus is first and foremost buying players that he can flip for a profit, not recruiting for the needs of the teams.

    At any time we were a premier league club this approach is insanity, the most lucrative thing for Gino by far and away is just simply maintaining PL status, there is simply no chance he could replicate this money with player trading, so tend to the needs of the first team before you even think about your player trading business, if the team does well then the player trading takes care of itself.

    Unfortunately I think a combination of greed and ego seem to have clouded his judgement and ability to comprehend basic maths, he thinks he can unearth the next Neymar and make £200m profit and outperform the PL riches.
     
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  10. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I assume the thinking is that the player trading profit generates profit over and above the regular money from being in the prem so adds to the pot rather than diminishes it. However the Sarr purchase was a hell of a misuse of funds. Was it to power boost the team to the next level? Was it player trading ? Was it trying to achieve both with one purchase? Was it ego?
     
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  11. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Probably read all those Twitter messages which said “Announce Sarr “ even in unrelated stories as if it was Messi or Ronaldo coming .
     
  12. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I’m sure that was the thinking, but I think it’s madness to take any remote chances with your PL status, which we did on numerous occasions and ultimately paid the price. There was an arrogance that Gino could just transplant the way Udinese operate across to us and it would work in the same way, but staying in the PL is a far tougher challenge and requires a different approach, you can’t afford to take your eye off the ball and get distracted by big ticket players that aren’t at the top of the first teams priority list.
     
  13. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Yes I’m sure they got complacent after 4 years in the prem, underestimated how hard it is to stay there, and how hard to get back once you’ve slipped out.
     
    a19tgg likes this.
  14. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    It was an insane signing. At £35m he cost more than the record transfers at 7 current PL clubs. Including Villa, Palace and Southampton, all who have a better claim to being established PL clubs over a longer period than us.
     
    a19tgg likes this.
  15. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Yep, we only signed 3 players that summer - one of which wasn't even fully fit - even though much of our squad seemed shattered.
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  16. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Jersey Hornet72 likes this.
  17. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    I think it was because we were already in a pickle financially, so they saw the Sarr deal as a sort of deluxe version of their player trading, not a 'buy a random Colombian for <£1m and sell him for £10m', but a 'buy for £35m and sell for £70m'
     
    Steve Leo Beleck likes this.
  18. Lubaduck

    Lubaduck First Year Pro

    On a playing side both the dip in form after the Wolves match and the loss of form after beating Liverpool 3-0 the following season both saw a Delefeou injury as a common denominator.

    As someone has already said a lack of investment in the defence .

    Recruitment. Too many South American/Portuguese/African "next biggest thing"
    A ball juggler with a bag full of tricks won't get us back into the Premier division .

    Goalscoring or lack of ....
     
  19. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    wfc4ever likes this.
  20. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Unfortunately not a subscriber myself .

    Sorry .
     
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  21. Pozzo Out

    Pozzo Out Squad Player

    There was one player who left that summer that cared about the club who described his training sessions as “a ******* joke”. I’ll give Gino all the flak in the world he deserves, but Munoz wasn’t up to it.
     
  22. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    A little bit like Gracia (although he should have earned a lot more goodwill), either be brave and get rid of Xisco in the summer, or back him, but don't give him a few games and then can him
     
    wfc4ever and WillisWasTheWorst like this.
  23. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Well Gosling wasn’t keen on Ranieri or Hodgson’s training methods so maybe it’s just the players that are the problem?
     
  24. Pozzo Out

    Pozzo Out Squad Player

    Said player despised Pozzo and actually wanted stability at the club.
     
    wfc4ever likes this.
  25. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    Hughes or Chalobah?
     
  26. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    We didn't really play wingers....the 'wider' midfield players were actually the middle rank of the weird 3 banks of 2 Gracia had in his 4-2-2-2 set up, which is why Hughes often found himself playing there. RP often played the left-sided of that 2, whilst GD was more often one of the most advanced 2. An out-and-out winger was never meant to feature in that set up.
    The argument that the system had been sussed by after the turn of the year is a valid one, which makes it even more bizarre that Gracia was given a long contract as he never once showed he could come up with another worthwhile set up. If Sarr was the start of a move to 'the next level', then we needed a HC who would actually select him! The fact that very 'next level' was unobtainable with the defensive players we had is another example of Pozzo's flawed decision-making.
     
    a19tgg likes this.
  27. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Sarr was pretty solid defensively when he first joined, I see no reason why he wouldn't work well in that system - and he certainly made much more sense than Hughes who isn't even right-footed and often seemed lost out there. Sarr was better at tracking than Bobby P on the other side.
     
  28. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Just say you were wrong, you can do it!
     
  29. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Sarr made complete sense as a right-sided midfielder in a 4; more so than Hughes did, and also more so than Pereyra did on the other side as the left side of a 4. He certainly wasn't ill-suited to the role.

    To suggest otherwise is making stuff up or attempting to rewrite history.
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  30. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Beep, beep, beep, this vehicle is reversing!
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  31. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    How so?

    I can only assume the person doing the reversing is you because you can't feasibly counter what I've said.
     
  32. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    But the HC who had just been given a long contract never played a midfield 4, so I’m not sure what your point is.
     
  33. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Pereyra, Doucoure, Capoue, Hughes sounds like a midfield 4 to me.
     
  34. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Just a distant memory now.
     
    lowerrous likes this.
  35. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Except none of them played in the wide position you were suggesting Sarr could have filled. 4-2-2-2 does not yield a traditional ‘4 man midfield’ in the way you imply.
     

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