Wfc Finances

Quite - if we must keep Bayat to do everything then let’s get rid of gibbering Nani.

 

Not backing Mogi in any way shape or form but there are a lot of agents who are similar to him

 

Because you're comparing their cost with only one of several things that they would be paid for ?

 

People really misunderstand agents I think because of the PR they get. They're essentially salespeople for footballers and football clubs. The best example is Crag Dawson, we had literally no interest in him when we got relegated. We worked with his agent to get him to West Ham as part of another deal the agent was doing with them and a player they really wanted. They can be quite useful if they're used well and they're always gonna take a cut otherwise they wouldn't do it...

 

But they're all getting paid for those several things at every club, so surely a comparison is still valid?

 

That’s a bit like saying people misunderstand Estate Agents because of the bad PR they get, they’re essentially sales people for houses.

I don’t think anybody misunderstands their role, but like all professions in life you get good ones and bad ones, straight up ones and more corrupt ones.

You’ve given a specific example of how an agent worked on something that was mutually beneficial to both them and Watford, that’s great but it’s not the uniform experience.

 

In absolute numbers sure, but as a % of transfer fees doesn't really tell much. Eg any club picking up just a few free transfers, shedding expensive players etc might have a very high agent % of transfer fees paid.

 

How do we know that as fans though? Surely clubs wouldn't facilitate the whole agent / intermediary bandwagon if on balance it wasn't beneficial more often than not?

 

Well I can only speak from out own experience as Watford fans, but given our consistently high spend on agent fees, our relative performance, some of the crap we have been forced to buy for silly fees, and some of the non-Mogi network players we’ve missed out on, id say we’ve had some very strong hints.

My point was simply I think we all know what agents do, but we don’t all have to agree everything they do is great, and everything they do is good value, even if some of of what they do is is useful.

In environments with little to no regulation and obscene amounts of money flying around it’s not all going to be a Teddybears picnic all the time.

 

You obviously get some wrong-uns, who probably produce the most media interest, but I know a couple who mainly work with lower-league players and it's a proper grind for not loads of money. Transfers are probably only about 15% of their jobs though in my experience. At the lower level they're sometimes essentially councilors for some of the players. They help to organise commercial deals, boot deals, player accommodation, PR/Media/Social Media strategies, i've heard of helping with childcare in some cases... I just think having met & worked with a couple they get a bit of an unfair rep, but don't get me wrong some of them are absolute chancers.

 

Fairplay, I see your point, although wouldn't a club being in that position (such as ours) fundamentally in itself indicate a problem with the way it's being run and the health of its relationship with an owner and financially?

In the sense that we are looking at agents fees relative to spending, and drawing positive or negative conclusions from that, if the numbers are gamed but the reason they are is because we have an abnormally high level of transactions that are shedding players and bringing others in for nothing, we can still very likely therefore draw the conclusion that that is a club in non-rude health, no?

 

Agents are a necessary part of the game but what does deserve scrutiny is how we use them, particularly in light of multiple allegations at Granada and Udinese (and around Bayat) of wrongdoing related to inflated agents' fees and tax avoidance.

We were consistently higher up the agent fee league table than our budget would suggest we should be whilst in the Premier League. Last time we got promoted, it was only the big six that spent more on agents, even though we didn't spend much to try and stay up and other clubs were bringing in players for £30-50m. Our biggest purchase was Louza for about £9m.

Layer on top of that our reliance on this particular agent, his near constant presence in the directors' box (often in club apparel), his murky past, that we have paid him on deals between Pozzo owned clubs, his seemingly close personal relationship with Pozzo (even though that was unconvincingly denied at the fan event, including Duxbury telling an outright lie about Bayat's company), and the stench becomes overpowering. We have paid a player's agent AND Bayat numerous times over the years on the same deal. Why? No-one else is capable of getting a deal over the line? What do Nani (and all the rest) and Duxbury do for their money then?

£63m taken out of our club to pay agents in the nine years the FA have been releasing data like this. Given the sheer number of deals he's been involved in and the fact he's been involved in a lot of the very biggest transfers where the agent percentages really take hold, it's not inconceivable that Watford football club has paid £20m, £30m maybe more in that time. Is that value for money? If Bayat is such a good deal maker and there's no special relationship, why did no other English club use him between 2018-24?

 

Ah Duxbury. What a thoroughly nice man.

 

What gets me is how much an agent "owns" a player and has complete control of the individuals football & financial management.

 

Because players are generally thick, and agents, a little less so.

 

Excellent point.

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but fairly certain someone (Duxbury perhaps?) defended the use of a ‘certain agent’ by saying we wouldn’t be able to get players like Dennis otherwise…

…interesting that Blackburn managed to get him without using Bayat though.

 

Isn't he Dennis's agent though so presumably was part of that deal

 

Well, he wasn’t paid as such according to the FA’s latest agents payments listings for the financial year.

 

Maybe I’ve misunderstood your Dawson example here - but looks like you’re saying West Ham bought him from us to make sure they got a player they really wanted , because the agent worked (owned) both players?

And you’re saying that’s a good thing?

If that worked in our favour that time, isn’t it exactly what we hate about Mogi? That we believe we often sign unwanted crap from him to get players we do actually want?

Agents should be getting paid by players and not clubs, end of. Absolute joke that amount of money is exiting football.

 

Where do you think it would go if agents didn’t exist?

 

Yeah, I’ve said it before but West Ham wanted Benrahma, whose agent was also Dawson’s. He said I’ll get you Benrahma (who was wanted by 5/6 PL teams) if you also sign Dawson. West Ham also have a similar relationship to this agent as we seem to with Mogi…

I’m not saying it’s the right or wrong way to do things, but it’s the way a lot of the industry works. We benefited from this example, because we’d flogged Dawson to just about everyone and not a single club wanted him and he was on pretty hefty wages for an average CB.

As for your other examples I have no idea how we work with Mogi so can’t really comment beyond the fact I’d rather we didn’t use him.

Not excusing some of Pozzo’s behaviour but having worked in football for the past 5 or so years, it’s honestly a Wild West and maybe bar the top clubs, pretty much every team I’ve ever worked with operate dubiously in some way.

 

I remember the excuse for crap like Oulare and Kums was that it was all part of “Operation Dendonker” who was the prize stallion in Bayat’s yard at the time.

 

“Crap”? Oulare ? I’ll have you know we beat Man Utd to the signing of that promising gem !!

 

Dendonker was simply a poor man's Dominic Blizzard.

 

Made a vital contribution to our Cup SF win though !!
Agent Bayat at work ?

 

Most likely the players - but in a football world we would all like, and with enough of a drive between all footballing people - that could reduce ticket prices, replica kits etc

 

Appreciate your reply and the details.

I just think it’s crazy how powerful agents have become and how it’s been allowed to happen. The fact we say ‘that’s how it is’ doesn’t make it any better in my opinion.

Id be interested to see how a club got on refusing to pay a single penny direct to an agent

 

Well, he did set up the SF equaliser for us…

 

I repeat what my admin lady told me about the Barclays PL.

She worked for Barclays and said it was well known that 18/20 PL clubs were money laundering.

I doubt it's cleaner now.