Wfc Finances

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by We hate 48, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Yeah they got short shrift from the court when they tried to claim relegation as some sort of force majeure and it was rightly pointed out that clubs of our size should always consider it a possibility!
     
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  2. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    I would also presume that the wealth of the owner is somewhat important to the long term future of the club when you have debt at our level but that wasn't really touched on by Maguire. I don't think there's any reliable estimate of Gino Pozzo's wealth but he's certainly not a billionaire and able/willing to just keep pumping money in - if he was, presumably we wouldn't always be taking out loans left, right and centre.
     
  3. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    While I agree with this premise on then whole, there are plenty of clubs that have been run into the dirt by owners who have vast wealth purely because they won't put their own money in any longer. The Pozzo family are incredibly wealthy and could write off Watford's debt to them should they want to. It would come at great personal expense of course, but they could do it in theory.

    Ellis Short at Sunderland for example....incredibly rich. But simply said he wasn't throwing more money at them.

    Gino has taken out so many loans because he has always had something to secure them against and that means he can do that rather than put his hand in his own pocket. Those times are simply coming to an end.
     
  4. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    How wealthy are the Pozzos? I've genuinely no idea. Obviously they're very wealthy by any normal person yardstick but I've always assumed they're relative minnows amongst others in the top two English tiers.
     
  5. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    This was posted on the forum a few months ago wasn’t it ? Aren’t we in the bottom 3 wealthiest owners in the league or similar ?
     
  6. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    They are minnows in terms of billionaires etc. But they (as a family) are very wealthy to the point that we aren't paupers. But when you separate Gino as a separate entity, then I think that outlook probably changes. I think his families wealth is not really his to use.
     
  7. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    It was but no idea where that article got their figures from and they offered no explanation! Like to see the workings before I believe anything... From memory they had Gino Pozzo's wealth at under £100m.
     
  8. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Few hundred million. But no idea how reliable those estimate are.
     
  9. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    ....and of course no idea of liquidity, ie how much of the wealth is available to invest in the club/lend to the club.
     
    Jumbolina and Steve Leo Beleck like this.
  10. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Apart from when Udinese need a left-back for next season and we really need the cash right now...
     
  11. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    In this entirely imagined scenario, did he still get a very fundamental fact wrong?
     
    GoingDown and Jumbolina like this.
  12. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    Is part of the issue that you have to look at our finances in the context of the other clubs around us to come up with a view if we are doing badly or very badly? I mean it’s not like judging Waitrose against Morrisons, Tesco or Lidl. Professional football does not operate in the same reality.

    Financing of football is a madness all its own. Hence you get even billionaires wasting huge sums, like Chelsea on Potter.

    How much have Leicesters made from winning the title and the FA Cup? No doubt not enough.

    Long term there will be money to be made in football, through a global internet audience. You just need an ownership with very deep pockets to keep you in the fringes of the feeding trough. Having had Premier League history adds some value to a new owner. Pozzo is just is not rich enough without a meg bucks partner. That to me is the real problem that is obvious from the experience of Promotion. You need lots and lots of money, and a willingness not to see it back for a very long time.
     
  13. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    As revenues go up, so do player/manager/ agent demands negating the increase. The sums that need to be paid just to sit at the big boys table grow and grow, and the impact of relegation becomes more and more difficult to adapt to. The sums that Chelsea have wasted on Potter are obscene at a time when most fans are struggling to feed their families and heat their homes.
     
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  14. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    It’s not really about making money for the majority of clubs, look at Barcelona, so measuring us against that metric won’t really help us. Our concerns are not about profitability, but how much debt we’ve got (debt that hasn’t been ploughed back into investing in the club) and our ability to repay it in the coming years whilst also remaining competitive on the pitch.
     
    RMT79 likes this.
  15. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Pretty much no-one buys a football club to make accounting profits. It's all about status and ego. Maybe someone like Glazer will look at a potential re-sale profit based on an increase in capital value, but they are few and far between I think. It's such a risky investment to buy a club and expect to make money one way or another.
     
  16. reids

    reids First Team

    Indeed, and he does flag it up where it arises, he's posted this morning that West Brom are in big trouble (https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1643904186935902210)
     
  17. Ilkley

    Ilkley Formerly known as An Ilkley Orn Baht 'at

    "meet its liabilities"
    Beat you to it @Keighley . :)

    I wish I had a pound for every time I wrote on student work: "its only has an apostrophe when it's short for it is."
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2023
    I Blame Pozzo likes this.
  18. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    West Brom of course just being one year further down the line than us in terms of when they were relegated and their parachute payments running out.

    That will be us in a year, so not much comfort to be gained from them being in a worse position according to Maguire.
     
  19. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Its as if its it’s own section of grammar.
     
  20. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Apparently their owners are due some loans - sounds familiar !
     
    a19tgg likes this.
  21. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    And West Brom fans have been making noise about this for ages, it was obvious they were in massive trouble - think their owner took a loan out from the club to keep his other business interests going during Covid and has shown no sign of paying it back.

    The fans were flagging the problems well in advance of Maguire (understandably given he only has limited time to spend on each club) so not inconceivable that that's the case here too.
     
    Burnsy likes this.
  22. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    Apologies for bumping a thread I started last May but with the current questions around finances I cannot stop scratching this itch I have relating to "other costs". @Jumbolina and I exchanged useful messages but no one is able to explain why.

    Keiran Maguire couldn't really answer why they were £44m last year and in comparison with other similar sized clubs the disparity is now even larger.

    Since then BMuff have published their accounts -other costs £17m-sure they were in EFL but look at the trend (Burnley and Palace have not yet published their 2022 accounts)-Norwich other costs were £17m.

    Sure the accounts are signed off by auditors and as fans we have no angle to ask the club and rely on experts like Keiran Maguire as to why our costs have averaged £32m pa whilst others of our ilk are c £16m -so over the last 7 years thats £110m difference. This is real cash out the door-not wages or player purchases.

    https://wfcforums.com/index.php?posts/3129436/
     
  23. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Given the materiality, you would have thought the auditors would have insisted on some sort of analysis in the notes to the accounts. Bayat/agent fees/worldwide recruitment consultant fees ?
     
  24. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    Are the accounts correct? "Errors" do happen all the time apparently.
     
  25. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Direct agent fees are capitalised into player asset value, so if it is something like that would need to be of a more general nature. It would be amusing if we were just bunging Bayat £10m a year for consultancy services!
     
    We hate 48 likes this.
  26. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Yes I was thinking some sort of retainer or the costs of the famous world wide scouting network :)
     
  27. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I've heard some horrific stories over the past 3 years about where some money goes but isn't reported. So these 'other costs' are of no surprise to me.

    The fact that Kieron Maguire isn't concerned really isn't important. We are fans of the club and trust me, we should be concerned.
     
    Muggins_77, We hate 48 and a19tgg like this.
  28. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    TBF I was on ‘oliday. Visited some Italianate gardens in Wiltshire. Gino would “of” loved them.

    Agree with the last comment. Also, principle/principal. My students could “of” made me a millionaire!
     
    I Blame Pozzo and Ilkley like this.
  29. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Stationary and stationery .....and stashernry ?
     
  30. Pozzo Out

    Pozzo Out Squad Player

    Im guessing nothing that can be safely shared?
     
    Burnsy likes this.
  31. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    From us or at other clubs?
     
  32. Thailandtimmy

    Thailandtimmy Now In British Columbia!

    Thank you, what a ness!
     
  33. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    I am not an accountant but I think that even if there were such fees paid as long as the directors -SD- as Gino is not - have a legitimate invoice behind it and it’s not to a related party ie Udinese or a Pozzo entity then it’s just a cost.

    Maguire cannot look into it as there is no more detail in the public domain. The third party lenders are secured on specific assets like transfer fees and TV revenue so no one can probe further .

    All a few of us can highlight is why have our costs been c£100m higher than comparable clubs like Palace, Norwich and Burnley since in PL This is real cash that has left our club- a factor that is now very important as we face another season in EFL

    If the vaunted fans forum actually takes place it could be asked but I suspect the response would be - “the auditors are happy” which is of course factually correct.

    If the owners/ directors choose to spend £100m on consultancy fees maybe to people they know, that is their choice. From the Gino point of view he might not have had to inject £50m over the past few years had this £100m remained in the club.
     
  34. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Stunned you aren’t an accountant (no insult intended :). Great analyses and interpretations of the financial releases.
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  35. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Gino sells Udinese, takes his loan back from Watford, which will effectively put us in admin, while he disappears of to his villa
     

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