Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by We hate 48, Sep 1, 2020.
On final point is it possible Sarr was £40m and Udinese in fact extracted £17m on Pussetto?
Does it only include new signings within that season or could it also involve payments made as installments for players acquired earlier?
-we paid £66m for players in our last season in PL. These included (per Transfer market/media sources) Pusetto £7m, Dawson £4m and Pedro c£5m. That leaves £50m for Sarr unless there is a player I have missed out on.[/QUOTE]
Aren't there a raft of smaller players each year? Blokes like Baah and Ngakia for example. I can't be arsed to go look dig through history, but typically we buy a handful of younglings each year. That could account for some of your gap.
It’s additions so just new players I believe. If we buy a player today for £20m he gets classed as an addition and starts being amortised. The fact we pay instalments will just create a creditor and when we pay instalments creditors and our cash will reduce.
The accounts say in one of the notes it was £7m
Gotcha as inter group transaction presumably.
Seems we’ve cleared the charge from the stadium for a £12m loan from XXIII capital from 2016.
I think that whilst the initial support was a £12m loan in 2016 it quickly grew to be a £70m loan to Hornets Investment Ltd (HIL) who in turn lent it onto their wholly owned subsidiary Watford Football Club ltd (WFC) against the security of a Debenture from WFC. And in turn HIL gave the same security to XXIII Capital (23 Capital) for that £70m loan (as at 30/6/20)
However it is overall good news as by looking the filings by HIL they show that 23 Capital have released all the security and so on the face of it that £70m loan has been repaid.
We knew that 23 Capital were looking to get out of such lending hence my original thread/post here-how have we done this well its anyones guess but potentially as we had a facility arranged in July 20 (so after the last published accounts) from Barclays secured against the TV income via the Premier League we might have borrowed from this source (particularly as those 2020 accounts stated Barclays had a first legal charge over the ground!)
1/ we have rid ourselves of a lender who wanted out anyway-whether we have borrowed from another source like Barclays will not be known until the accounts for June 22 are published in 2023 (as the accounts to June 21 which are due out sometime next year will not show this news-bar maybe a note to the accounts).
2/ Its very good news.
Less skint than Barca it seems .
Apparently so. Strange days are these.
The comparison don’t end there .
They had to sell Messi , we had to sell Deeney .
In a world where we've offloaded (half offloaded in Gray's case) a lot of our higher earners, have reduced wage relegation clauses, have barely spent any money on signings and have paid off loans, it feels like we're a lot healthier than last year.
Have we borrowed much against the Prem money this year?
Are we in a state that if we go down we'll be pretty strong and wealthy?
Are we in a state that if we stayed up we could significantly strengthen (within our means) next season for a prolonged stay in the league?
And how much do we think Sarr is worth now realistically?!!
I agree. I think the entire strategy for this season was to reduce debt significantly, first and foremost. From a layman's look at transfer dealings it appears the budget was set at zero in terms of this season's EPL money. We've pretty much self-funded our transfers against outgoings to incomings.
If we go down, we'll be in decent shape financially, however, how much of the current squad stays? Midfield is all on loan, Sarr and Dennis will go as will Sierralta I suspect. So we'll be scratching around for a competitive team to bounce straight back I'd imagine.
If we somehow stay up this season, I expect we'll still sell Sarr, but will be able to demand the highest price, so we'll be probably the strongest we've ever been financially under the Pozzo's.
For the long term health and prosperity of Watford, it's vital we stay up this season. However, if the worse happens, I think we'll be ok in terms of finances, but I suspect it will be a case of we start again as a club. We use these hot young prospects we've accumulated over the past two or three windows and we try to build the club up again.
You know that bit where I said we might keep Etebo even if we go down? Yeah, scratch that! I don't think we necessarily need to panic if he and Tufan leave, we'd still have Sissoko, Kucka (if Sanchez can be a useful asset at that level, so can Kucka, even if I hardly want him playing too much of a 38 game season, let alone a 46 game one), and TDB to come back (possibly Quina too, albeit it wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for him to come back!) and of course any players we'd be signing
It did feel at one point in pre season like we were building a team to win or compete to win the championship next season and if we stayed up this year with that team then all the better.
It does feel like we have a pretty strong championship side on long contracts and were we to go down then we'd be in a stronger position to yoyo a bit for the next few years.
As a rough idea could do well on paper in the Championship. Think we may struggle to keep the likes of Pedro and Cucho although we said that about Sarr in 20/21. Not sure on Etebo situation either.
Either way I think we'd likely have enough to compete for play offs for a couple years at least.
Sarr is worth £40-£60m depending how good a season he has. Right now he's worth closer to £60m.
If JP and/or Dennis have good seasons I think they might leave for decent money if we get relegated.
Does that mean Gino was using the stadium as collateral to take out loans??
Of course. Has been for years.
Well, we'd probably need him at right wing next season if we go down, but yes, Zinck could be another midfield option
Do you have any proof? I raised this point last season and got shot down by COGers
We don’t know the current state of play, but you find details of the various charges on our assets and future cash flows in the account notes.
Why would it be unusual/a surprise anyway though? Pretty standard for debt to be secured on something is it not?
Risking the stadium is a big no no as far as I'm concerned.
But who would lend anyone millions and millions without any security? Mortgages are a pretty standard thing and generally much smaller sums. I also dread to think of the interest rate on a loan that wasn’t secured on anything, the risk to the lender is significantly higher within no collateral and hence the cost would reflect that. I get the concern, but it’s a pretty standard thing. Anywhere there is debt at any football club it will most likely be secured against the ground. Whether there should be debt or not, and why there is debt is another debate entirely of course.
Burnley’s recent leveraged buyout, all £90m of it, is secured against Turf Moor:
But Burnley is an example of the worst possible financial structure of a football club. It shouldn't be legal to buy football clubs in this way. Also in my opinion club owners shouldn't be allowed to use a stadium as collateral.
Are we skint or what?
Like most clubs probably relying on loans and hand outs .
The general feeling is that we are fairly close to bankruptcy.
This could be why the club has invested very little towards the squad this season .
As hard as it is to understand, the club appear to be wishing to pocket the TV and Premier league money this season and rely on the parachute payment to finance another shot at Promotion from the Championship. All of this with mediocre players who will be on a 50% wage reduction.
Sarr will go in the January sales.
This business plan seems crazy, but take a look around and take stock of what you see at the club.
Do you see investment in the playing staff?
We are weaker now than our Championship season.
Ranieri is not going to be the answer.
The players are not good enough for the Premier league. That is the bottom line.
Bournemouth are paying Cahill £50k a week and banking on promotion to balance the books. They need the Premier league money
They are gambling on promotion.
The Pozzo family have generally been good for Watford FC. This time, the Relegation 2022/Promotion 2023 business plan may be Gino's undoing and the final straw.
I don’t think that’s remotely reflective of the general feeling.
Maybe he meant if we hadn’t got promoted or got rid of the big wage earners.
Or maybe it’s another gross exaggeration!!
That post seems to be riddle with mixed message.
We don’t want to spend now to save for next season when we will to try and come back up despite having no money (allegedly)?
Cahill is on 20k a week apparently..