Just following a19's logic? Do you disagree with him? You're welcome to, if it makes you feel better.
I wonder if you can think really hard and identify the difference between McNamara being given a chance at Millwall after loan spells at Newport/St Johnstone, and our situation over the past 7 years. It's very funny you're still banging this drum despite being proven wrong on it time and time again.
I can't remember what the original point was, sorry. I just see these arguments on here in which nobody is right or wrong, it's just a different perception. Some see our current position as a good one to build on. Others, including me, see it as a false high and that we will end up lower and won't be good enough to win the playoffs should we make it. Only time will tell which of us is right. I'll admit I'm a pessimist as far as Wfc are concerned, so maybe my view is coloured accordingly, but I cannot see us going up this season, without something drastic changing and by that, I don't mean Bilic.
The Millwall chap’s comments on academy products really stick out for me after watching Bacuna huff and puff his way through 45 minutes. None of this is his fault, he’s obviously well short of match fitness and is a stop gap measure who may be a reasonable player at this level. However, the fact we had to go and sign him on a free to me really shows what sh*te our academy has been producing over the last few years. Nobody even remotely able to step in for a few games? Not even one good enough to be a back up off the bench. Another horrible bit of mismanagement from those at the top
No because an academy player would misplace passes, fail to track runners and lose 50/50s. You just wouldn't get that from experienced first teamers.
I thought it was pretty common for players to strap their ankles for extra stability anyway, even without an underlying injury?
You're another one who doesn't bother reading the forum/and/or taking on board the information. Our academy has had produced a few players in recent seasons who've been called up for youth England squads, but as soon as that happens they get nicked.
Bingo, and what we're left with are League 1 level at the very very best. A fat Leandro Bacuna is a better player than every midfielder in our youth squad, and every Dan Phillips, Dion Pereira over the years who hasn't been poached, and looked okay playing against children.
Well the club have been hyping up a few in recent weeks - are they good enough? What has happened to Forde and Blake looks like another we will lose . Is there not a Doyley , Robbo or Tommy Smith in the youth who could step up at Championship level ? Or are we not even able to produce those sorts of youngsters - in which case we have to ask why ? I suppose Hungbo was the best and well didn’t impress last time out . No one is asking for the next super star but someone who could do a job if required .
If, in the next few years, we settle into a role of a mid table Championship club (hence why it's happened at Millwall) we may see Doyley-level players start to come through. Don't hold your breath for any Ashley Youngs, mind. They'll be getting £5k a week at Man City before they can get a provisional driving licence.
Forde is a striker (supposedly), and hasn't looked very good from the little I've seen of him. I'm not sure I've really seen any hype about him either?! Blake seems to be rated to an alright level, but he's a winger, not CM, and still just 17 so unlikely to be ready to start, if make much of an impact at all yet. There seems a decent chance we'll lose him soon anyway. Even top-tier Man City/Man Utd etc prospects will struggle to do a job in the Championship at 17. The players they've currently loaned out to the Champ eg Hannibal and McAtee are more like 19/20. Hungbo wasn't even ours btw - he was a Crystal Palace reject at 19; and you can see why.
I don't know the history or the details, but why are Millwall producing players good enough for this level, but we are not?
Fair enough but then the club shouldn’t hype the youth players up on Twitter /YouTube if all we do is lose the best ones and left with the dregs . Doyley maybe a bad example as technically he wouldn’t make it now but a Smith with some pace and skill ? Guess that would be what we hope from Hungbo. BTW talking about 19-21 rather than 17/18 and in general terms rather than just midfield but I accept that is where we are lacking most now .
That doesn't make sense. Why can a mid table championship side produce mid table championship players, whilst a yoyo prem/champ team can only produce league 1 and lower?
You won’t get much of an answer. Although bringing up the youth academy always, without fail, triggers the same two posters every single time. I think it was shown a while back that over 100 players had been through our youth ‘system’ without any success. Of course, that just means they were all rubbish to start with and zero in the way of natural talent.
There would be absolutely nothing to lose by putting Blake and Forde on the bench vs Swansea and maybe giving them some minutes. Sema moving back to LB and Pedro injured have now created some gaps. I'm a firm believer that these kids will only show their worth and will only improve if they actually get the minutes. And I don't mean 10 minutes in a League Cup game, I mean the club picking some of the most promising players in the U21s and saying these kids are all going to get consistent minutes this season. Funnily enough that's what we decided to do earlier this year, surely not more bullsh!t?
So they’re either lying or incompetent. But to a certain subsection of supporters, it can’t be either of those as they can do no wrong.
I've just had a chat with Ford Dante Pericles Coleridge and he isn't keen in truth. He said he wants to stay on his bunk bed and chase the voles when they appear. Persephone said "no" too. That's cats for you!
Championship clubs are able to give regular chances to youth players, who may, after a while, prove to be mid table Championship level. Premier League clubs, and clubs going all out for promotion, don't have that luxury. Due to having more quality blocking the path, and the need for instant results, without the luxury of having time to allow a young player to be out of their depth for a while. An upper Championship/Premier League club like us can produce Premier League level players, but they get poached before they are able to make an impact, as has been proven time and time and time again. Over the past 10 seasons our average league position has been that of a Premier League club. Can you name any of the 100s of youth products (apart from those nabbed by bigger clubs) who have gone on to show they are capable of making an impact at the level we've been at? Surely if they had all this natural talent that every coach in the club couldn't spot (and mean old Gino kept blocking their path), they'd have no problem going out and proving us wrong. I look forward to that massive list. I agree that the club shouldn't hype them up because it convinces people that players like Cassidy (without club), Folivi (without club), Dalby (Wrexham), Mason (Crawley), Phillips (St Johnstone), Blu-Lo Everton (Derby's reserves), Jakubiak (Dundee), Byers (Sheff Wed) are good enough for a top end Championship/Premier League club. The list goes on but I got bored.
CEO says he wants 3 youth teamers in the first team. 3 youth teamers get promoted to first team. 2 seperate managers watch said youth teamers and decide none are good enough, even during injury crisis after injury crisis. Why is that so difficult to understand?
One of the two players is a boyhood Millwall fan for starters, so would have been more willing to stick around. The other didn't even make their breakthrough until they were 23. It hardly seems an easily replicatable model, nor a roaring success.
Depends who you mean by 'they'. The academy players, when compared to first teamers? Sure, in that context. Academy staff? The CEO? The club attracts who it can, and keeps who it can. We as a club have recruited several promising players who have gone on to appear for England youth teams, before being nabbed by bigger clubs/attracted by big money.
I comprehend it, but it's bilge. That we produce worse young players because we are a handful of league places above Millwall? It's utter nonsense. You even show yourself that the quality just isn't there. It's not like when given a chance to make mistakes at lower clubs, our youth prospects shine. We simply bring in crap, raise them craply and then discharge them into the local sewerage systems. We have a broken system because we clearly don't give a **** about youth and never have under Pozzo. Trying to explain it as a byproduct of our 'success' is utter rot.
I’m asking if you believe that the CEO was incompetent to suggest there were any players good enough in our academy to progress to the first team. If he thinks there are/were and by your own rules, you believe there isn’t and won’t ever be (as anyone good will leave), there’s no other view you can take? He’s either lying to placate fans or he’s incompetent in believing what he’s saying.
@wfcmoog in addition to my post above, their 2 academy grads are also statistically 2 of their 3 worst regular outfield starters this season. So again, producing 2 players who are below average for Millwall does not indicate a major success either, or anything particularly aspirational.
Well you've shown pretty clearly that you *don't* comprehend it, seeing as I said we *can* and *have* produced better players, but they've been nicked. Luke O'Nien is a perfect example as to what I'm talking about re: lower level clubs able to give chances we can't afford to. When he was here, it was clear he was a nice enthusiastic lad, but not good enough for the level we were at. He ends up in League 2, is able to make mistakes and iron out his deficiencies due to the poorer quality competition for places, and less immediate need for success. He was never going to get that here. Years on, and he's a mid table Championship-level player. The fact that Millwall have a couple of youth products that are mid table-Championship level also proves the point I'm making. Less high quality competition, less immediate need for success, and even in that more ideal environment, only a tiny % are able to come through an make an impact at a level that has been below ours for 10 years.
Can you clarify what you think the lie is, by the way? Because you know the screenshot above is from an Athletic article, not an interview with Duxbury, right? Also there's plenty of evidence that Duxbury isn't the most trustworthy and it's naive to take him at his word. Happy to say so. If you can find the quote where he says we definitely have academy players good enough to make an impact for a top 6 Championship club then fair play, I think he's incompetent. From what I can see, the club have (rightly) said they want Head Coaches to have a look at Youth Players. That directive was carried out in pre season, and no one was deemed good enough. Here's a quote from Rob Edwards, by the way. "What we’ll do is give the younger player opportunities in pre-season. I would love to be able to develop homegrown players and we are fortunate to have an exceptional academy set-up with unbelievable staff. Nothing would please the club more than have players in the first team who have come through the academy." Is Rob Edwards lying, incompetent, or both? Still looking forward to your answer to the below:
Rob Edwards referred to us having an excellent academy. He was either lying or deluded. Like most that come and go to the club in his position. I’m not scared of admitting things like that. You also forget that I once was like you, championing the owners in all things. Like you do now, I used to have raging arguments with the likes of Nath about how our owners could do no wrong. Opinions can actually change. In answer to your question, you’re asking someone who believes that this club ruins these players during their formative years so my answer would be, depending on where you’re placing the club today (just lost to Millwall, so upper mid table championship?), very few. Your argument would actually hold more water if we’d produced one or two players through the system, but it’s none. None have come even close. And it’s no surprise. And it’s horribly sad - as shown with the Millwall fan posting today, some of the most fun you can have at a football match is watching a young home grown player come through.
