Violence Against Women: What Is To Be Done?

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by Moose, Oct 2, 2021.

  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Here’s a light one for your Saturday. Does misogyny and violence against women need to have the same approach taken to it that racism has? That public bodies have to demonstrate what they are doing to combat it, to remove institutionalised sexism?

    An example of that institutionalised sexism emerged from the Wayne Couzens trial, that he was known to his colleagues as a user of violent pornography with the nickname ‘the Rapist’. Yet whether that made him unsuitable to be a Police Officer was never challenged by his colleagues. If he had similar views on ethnic minorities it’s likely (not certain, but likely) he would have come to the attention of his superiors. Tackling that culture (and this instance happens to be the Police but could be across all services and employers) is a must.

    Article here spells out the reality and criticises both Tory and Labour approaches.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/women-prey-authority-violence-against-women
     
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  2. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Like other disturbing things in the world like racism, kidnap, crime etc. there is no real way to ever put a stop to it. I've never been in an abusive relationship but I do know of others who have. It's an awful thing and makes you really want to stand up and fight for the innocent side. Regardless of what either shade of the Government could decide to do, be in longer prison sentences or what have you, it will never go away. As a species, humans seem to have an objective dislike for each other. Women can also be the accused - it doesn't swing one way - and if there was to be a new rule on this particular topic, it would have to be leveled as equal regardless of gender.
     
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  3. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    With regards to the police in particular, there needs to be a change in culture.

    I can understand that there needs to be a sense of camaraderie but misogynistic (and racist) officers have used this to discourage complaints against them.

    It appears that officers that do complain are often ostracized by fellow officers and even fear for their safety as they believe they will not get support from other officers if they get into trouble on the streets.

    The police need to encourage officers to complain, anonymously if necessary, and investigate those complaints thoroughly and without bias. If officers are found to be misogynistic, racist or generally unsuited to be in the force following such complaints then they should be sacked.
     
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  4. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I think it’s straightforward, the answer is yes.
     
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  5. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    Men need to wake up to the way we look at women, visualise women, ogle women. Call it what you want. Everything needs sorting. Even simply 'eyeing up' a woman should be out of bounds for men if we really want to fix society. It has to start at the very basic form of interaction.
     
  6. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    I agree with this to a point. So I will play the "maybe" card.
    I admire the ladies. IMO there is nothing wrong with admiring the opposite sex.
    One thing menopausal women say is that they are "invisible" i.e. no one admires them.
    If someone is not aware that women actually enjoy respectful male attention then they need to
    widen their social circle.
    Asking respectful men to change because of mysogonists is not the way forward
     
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  7. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    One man's 'respectful' is another woman's 'harassment'...it's so difficult to classify.
    A more fundamental question is why do so many men find the need to express their feelings of self-worth within the context of denigrating women.
     
  8. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Having watched numerous crime documentaries violence in the home against women and to a lesser extent men occurs all too regularly. And often ends with death.

    Women need to be told and girls as well that they can say no without fear of violence or intimidation. And that if some idiot so called man cannot take it and tries to use mental, physical forms of control then to go to the relevant authorities. Which means those authorities need to take such issues very seriously. We have seen all too often recently as with the abuse rings around the country social services, local politicians and the police trying to ignore things. Girls need to be educated about being manipulated particularly in these times about predators and coercion online. Punishments for those who perpetrate such violence and manipulation needs to be increased.

    That said demonizing the police over the actions of this very bad apple is also a tad harsh. We have had other examples of bad officers who use their position to prey on vulnerable victims but there have also been instances in the medical profession, teaching profession and so on and so forth. It is a societal problem.
     
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  9. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    My main issue with tackling "violence against women" is it inherently sweeps the domestic issue of violence against men under the table.

    Female on male violence is a lot more common than people think, but it's not acceptable to be beaten by a woman so we just pretend it doesn't happen. There are a lot of men who are also subjected to abuse and it needs to be tackled too.

    Or to put it another way: a more inclusive way of approaching the subject would be helpful, one that makes it clear that all facets of violence on significant others, misandry, misogyny etc. are addressed. They may manifest in different ways, but the underlying problems are the same regardless of who the victim is. We need to stop trying to argue about who gets it worse and just agree that all forms of abuse are unacceptable, then address them as such.
     
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  10. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    The issue with this is the debate has been triggered by such an atypical event that I think the whole thing in danger of becoming confused. I don't see how any government (or society) can come up with a coherent response to such a wide-ranging set of problems being identified at once. To me it splits down into a few things:

    1. The police - I think everyone knows my experience of this, but it wasn't in the Met and they do have a certain culture which is different than county forces. One of my most enjoyable experiences was locking up and/or investigating domestic abusers. I know many many colleagues who felt the same way. It's also a thankless task, with many women feeling they have little choice but to return to their abusers because of societal pressures. The police are a product of the society they're drawn from and we need to stop treating them (or the army, or any other profession really) like it's possible to isolate it as a problem child that needs more discipline.

    2. Couzens - What Couzens did is mind-bogglingly abhorrent. On the night, I don't see how it could have been prevented and so any noise about plain clothes police officers' powers is completely bogus in my view. It appears there were warning signs earlier on. I'm dubious those warning signs were anything like as clear at the time as they are now in hindsight, but it's completely right they're looked at and attempts made to guard against them in future.

    3. Funding - I also know how under-resourced everything is. Over 10 years, government funding for women's refuges has been decimated. Social services too. Meanwhile the definition of domestic abuse has been constantly widened but with no accompanying uplift in funding to police it. Women's needs are rarely prioritised by politicians beyond lip service.

    4. Behaviours - Society needs to get over this current fad of saying any crime prevention advice is 'victim blaming'. Is it acceptable to say a woman shouldn't dress how she likes or drink as much alcohol as she likes on a night out? Absolutely not. Is it it acceptable to say that anyone shouldn't walk alone into a dark alleyway at night or should make sure if they're getting pie-eyed they have a plan to get home, preferably with mates? Yes, completely. People need to remember their own personal safety is their responsibility too and it can't be outsourced to the police, the government etc. However, a very simple fact is this - a determined and motivated offender cannot be stopped, other than by luck. (And, in case it occurs to anyone to ask, sadly I can't see anything Sarah Everard might have done differently).
     
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  11. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    I think it's more asking respecful men to understand more what women find respectful and matching up the two opinions. It's a tough one and I get what you are saying. Some people these days have a pop at men for being chivalrous so it's difficult to really get right these days.
     
  12. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Does anyone really? I don’t think being polite or kind ever upsets anyone.

    However, there are also plenty of occasions when male attention towards women really boils down to are you up for it? It’s not genuine interest this cheer up love sort of chivalry towards random pretty strangers some blokes go for. Women get the difference between manners and a come on.

    However, I don’t understand why many women expect to be paid for on a dinner date. That seems anachronistic and mixed up.
     
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  13. elliott_honour

    elliott_honour Battle Hardened Centre Forward


    "anachronistic" Like that word. Word of the day for me now.
     
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  14. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    A chap that opens a car door for a woman either has a new car or a new wife.
     
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  15. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Stats on the number of people murdered in the UK last year:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020

    Main break-down:

    It is interesting that no one is asking what can be done about the number of men being murdered.

    On the whole, the homicide rate is pretty low in the UK. But no death is insignificant, we must take these crimes seriously, and consider what can be done to prevent them, and locking people up and throwing away the key does not seem to extreme in cases like Sarah Everard.

    But why have we become so desensitised to the murder of men? Why is it that their deaths will not garner the same outrage and as when it happens with women. Don't get me wrong. It is as unacceptable when it happens to women as it is to men. So why, when men are three times more commonly effected by murder, is it just not a topic we are encouraged to concern ourselves with?

    Is it just that a woman or child attacked will gain more clicks, viewers or readers? Or garner more outraged support for a campaign to criticise whoever is in government?

    I think so, and I think the people shouting the most in the media and political organisations, about these terrible circumstances, don't give a damn about the lives lost, and care more about the morbid things that get their own endorphines circulating.
     
  16. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    There is concern about how many people, how many men are murdered. That varies across the reasons why and whether there are reasons that can be addressed.

    So there has been lots of attention about the number of young men killed by each other as a result of gang or postcode disputes. This is a specific issue that has had many newspaper headlines and millions poured into prevention. It’s a particular type of problem and one that potentially could be reduced. If you are desensitised to it that’s your call, but most see it as a desperate tragedy.

    Men are rarely the victim of sexually motivated crime by women, abduction murder or abduction rape of men by women is almost unheard of. There are hundreds of women killed by men in the home in each year. That’s not true the other way around, so there must be reasons. It’s not unreasonable to consider it the thin end of a wedge of widespread domestic violence and other harassment by men of women that women complain of. It’s a problem that doesn’t have to be accepted, could possibly be improved if there is pressure of men to change their behaviour. And that may not change the behaviour of psychopaths, but they won’t be able to hide in plain sight with the nickname ‘the rapist’ if other men don’t tolerate it.

    It’s odd to me that you find the widespread concern about such events fake. Your first reaction ‘what about someone else’?
     
  17. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    I agree with the points you are making, though we differ on their significance in the greater scheme, perhaps. However, I disagree strongly with many of your conclusions.

    Firstly, I do not say the horror of these murders is fake, and never attempted to do so, as I believe most people will understand. It is the media and activist opportunism that I call fake, in terms of the remorse expressed (and no doubt forgotten when they get their next cause or story).

    The statistics seem already to show that, in the UK, murder is rare and committed by psychopaths. The 30 million odd men in the UK that do not murder, sexually assault or beat their fellow human beings are pretty much testament to that. Unless you are suggesting that the statistics are massively undermined. The problem is not 'men', though men are statistically a greater proportion of the problem, committing only 450 odd more murders in a year than women do. It is only a few hundred individuals, of both sexes, in the UK who choose to kill someone each year. There are also female psychopaths; a smaller part of the problem, but non-the-less part of the problem. We ignore that at our peril, and risk marginalising the tragic deaths that may occur at their hands, particularly in infanticide. Should we rely on the press and political activists to tell us when that becomes a problem to be enraged about? I suggest we be just as enraged about that as any other murder.

    Your argument at the moment seems to be that it is men who are the problem, so using the tragic death of women is a means to an end to sort "men" out. It is a short sighted view, in my opinion, that will distract from the real problems that allow psychopaths to commit murder.

    How much effort must go into re-educating 30 million men, while the 200 or so psychpaths, of both sexes, who kill women each year will continue to do what they do regardless.

    That represents a potential massive waste of money and resource, and the only thing it will achieve is greater distrust in society. Whose interest are served by that? Someone who wishes to replace society?

    Your stats on hundreds of women killed in the home by men each year are exagerated. Around 200 women are murdered a year full stop. The figure, regrettable as it is, is more like 120, or 0.002% of the population. At least 10% of those murders (probably considerably more) are committed by other women. Many, many more people will die as result of road traffic accidents, and money would be better spent on educating road users and pedestrians than it would re-educating men not to do what, statistically, 100% of them already know they should not do.

    Yes, I am desensitised. Just as you are, which can be ascertained from the contents of your post. I said we, and I stand by that. Raising the subject here is part of my attempt, at least, to look at a wider picture, and not just the one that the media and political activists want us to see. I cannot imagine why that may be considered a problem, unless there is an agenda other than recognising that murder is bad, whoever does it, and to whomever they do it to.

    The 500 odd UK homicides each year are tragic, and we must do what we can practically to prevent them. Treating all men as potential murderers, whilst ignoring that women are responsible for around 50 murders a year, would be madness. Remaining desensitised to any homicde demographic is unacceptable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
  18. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Agree with most of what you’ve said.

    It does however sound like there were several opportunities to stop Couzens. The fact that his nickname among colleagues was ‘the rapist’, he brought extreme pornography into work and brought a call girl to a work party when his wife was at home, feels far from subtle and like action would be taken against him in pretty much any other professional industry.

    His car number plates were also identified as the vehicle from which a man exposed himself to a woman on more than one occasion.

    But at every one of these stages, the crimes seem to have not been taken seriously. That a man showed outward and confident disregard for women, in such a position of authority, should have flagged alarm bells. Clearly either people felt unable to make a complaint, their complaint was lost, or people thought that this behaviour was not worthy of complaint. All three are troubling.

    As you state, there is very little you can do on the day if someone intends to harm someone else.

    But you can certainly improve police processes, to ensure that members of an organisation act in a way that takes warning signs seriously.
     
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  19. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I do get what you're saying but there's a couple of bits I personally wouldn't put as much weight on.

    On the nickname thing, I understand that was a relatively long time ago, when he was in the Civil Nuclear Constabulary. Try as I might I can't see any way the Met could have known about that. There's also a tendency for military culture around banter/nicknames to seep into the police culture. It doesn't translate well into other workplaces. I can't recall a colleague called 'rapist' mind you.

    And when it comes to the time taken to investigate the exposure allegations, this isn't in my view symptomatic of police culture and so isn't for the police (alone) to fix. It's just another in a long line of indicators that show the criminal justice system in this country is completely screwed. The gap between what politicans promise, and what they legislate against to add yet more laws onto the statute book, and the resources they provide to deliver an effective police service is huge. Other than the most serious homocide or kidnap investigations, or those other serious crimes where evidence needs to be gathered immediately or lost, everything else just goes into the pot to be dealt with. A registration plate doesn't speed up the time it takes to allocate that offence to an officer, nor their capacity to deal with it when they have 20+ other crimes in their in tray and live jobs to attend. And, while I appreciate this won't go down well with some, the fact is if you prioritise that it means something else gets bumped. Fine if it's the newspaper stereotype of a online naughty words crime, but much more likely it's a robbery or a burglary...

    I've said for a long time to anyone who will listen that we're past the point where we need a Royal Commission to let the public have their say about the police service they want for the 21st century. Tell the police what is and isn't a priority, have an adult conversation about the consequences for X if the police do more of Y, set the cultural expectations and then get on with it. Unfortunately what we got instead was the introduction of another layer of politician (police and crime commissioners) and more and more demands from politicians everywhere.
     
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  20. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I also agree with a lot of this, but I do think there is much more that could be done to change the culture of public services, both to stop the wrong people joining and then so bad behaviours are not tolerated.

    I think the response to the measures suggested is not that hailing a bus is a bad idea if you are being stopped by a lone officer, but that on it’s own it’s feeble compared to the work needed to change police culture and its rules of engagement.

    I think it needs a Lawrence type enquiry and similar measures/effort to eliminate misogyny as were taken to combat racism. It can also seem like the reaction to one extreme case and then the next day another is up in court for rape and women are phoning Jeremy Vine in droves to complain about dodgy police behaviour to them. It’s a problem and the Police is not the only public service or area of work it exists in.
     
  21. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    The issue of the nickname is not whether the Met knew, but clearly lots of others did and the culture wasn’t strong enough to call it out.

    It’s the same with Saville. No one at the BBC, in Government, the Police or the NHS at a high level ‘knew’, but others didn’t have the power nor did the culture recognise the wrongness.
     
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  22. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I think you're right that it needs to be far more widescale reform than just focusing narrowly on the police. Unless the general public are subject to the same reforms/expectations etc around misogyny then I don't really see why the police should be expected to be at the vanguard of it. While I definitely agree police officers should be held to a higher standard in many areas of life, it should never be so high that it effectively seeks to use the police service as a tool for wider social change. Doing that isn't going to end well, as it just widens the gap between the protectors and the protected.

    I mean, I'll wait and see what more comes out but for now we really have no idea how widely known it was. The insinuation of how it's been portrayed in the media so far is that everyone knew him as that, bosses addressed him as that, he had it on his name badge and it was formally recorded in his HR record. My experience tells me it was probably something known only to a very small number of people who worked directly with him. It's possible it may not have even been known to their immediate supervisor.

    It's also far from simple to see how it would have been resolved in a way which could have stopped him. I mean, who is the wrong in that situation? Arguably those calling a work colleague 'the rapist' are far more likely to attract attention from professional standards investigators than the subject. I highly doubt it'd have lead to some sort of 'no smoke without fire' investigation into Couzens... more likely a bullying probe into his colleagues.

    Now maybe that's the culture that needs to change. I don't know. I just think it's a bit of a red herring.
     
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  23. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    He shouldn't have been, or allowed to remain a police officer.

    Whether that would have stopped him killing, or whether he was easier to catch and convict because he was are other questions to ponder.

    Personally, I think he is a weak person. I imagine that the authority of being a policeman is the one thing that enabled him to do this terrible wretched thing. He should never have been a policeman, and, as dismal a person as he is, I suspect he would never have developed the balls to go through with it if he had not been empowered by his warrant card.
     
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  24. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I’m not saying ‘men’ are the problem. That’s you personalising it. Many men are the kindest and gentlest of souls.

    Misogyny is the problem, which can be expressed by women and men. Plenty of women use the lower position of other women to exploit them. In a dispute between a wealthy couple and the maid the woman is unlikely to be siding with the maid because it’s all women one for all and all for one.

    But misogyny finds particular expression in some men. If you haven’t heard it then I wonder how. It’s a problem that can be reduced through education and policy.
     
  25. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    It may seem contrary to my post above, but I agree with what UEA says here. I think that Moose also has a valid point in the need for a culture that has difficulty pointing a finger at inappropriate behaviour. Perhaps it is possible to apply UEA's opinion to it by saying that the reaction of his colleagues to his behaviour was not to call him the rapist, putting themselves in line for criticism, but to raise it as an issue with the service.

    I am confident that anyone who made a sleazy or unpleasant comment about a work colleague which implied they were a rapist, would be investigated immediately, in the part of the NHS I work in.

     
  26. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    If the guy was a teacher, doctor, civil servant or judge, I cannot imagine the guy (quite rightly) would have gone on to get a job at another workplace and retain his job without being at the very least substantially monitored. I really believe that one of these flags, the escorts, the porn, the open discussions about drug use etc. would have been investigated, rather than shrugged off, ignored or laughed at. So why should this not be the case in the police?

    I think most police officers are good people, and this is clearly a very rotten apple. But from stories I have heard, both personally and in the news, it feels like there is a culture - to protect and not challenge their own - which misses the bigger picture. Especially when stories like this, or where photos of dead women have been shared as jokes in WhatsApp groups, and other personal stories I have heard from friends and family members, arise, and show such a fundamental lack of respect.

    I think all vital public institutions with power, whether that be teachers, police, doctors, judges etc., should constantly look at (or rather be looked at) to understand how they are exerting that power and whether it is fair and appropriate. The police perhaps most of all, given their role as gatekeepers to the justice system and ability to immediately take away key human freedoms.

    Almost the single most important aspect of policing is to ensure most are able to go to the police with concerns and know they will be treated seriously, and with compassion. It might not have taken place in the Met, but a force in which someone is called 'the rapist' by colleagues (whether by a couple, or many more), points to a horrible culture, whether he was innocent or not, and certainly isn't one that inspires trust or confidence (especially in self regulation or vetting).

    Clearly though, as you state, the issue isn't going to be sorted without substantial funding/ investment. I imagine it will lead to a public enquiry, with findings ignored due to cost implications and union/ police hesitancy to change.
     
  27. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    I work in a predominantly female environment, and I am afraid what I hear most is the opposite of misogyny, both in forms of banter, and, as many of my female colleagues would describe it, total f-ing bitchyness. It is an act of complete denial to suggest that Misandry is a problem not equal in scope to misogyny, and the cause of much mental cruelty to men, as I am pretty sure most women would agree.

    Both exist, and both are clearly a problem. But I suspect that Misanthropy is greater threat to individuals at risk of homicide in the UK, which is why I particularly dislike the deliberate dehumanising of individuals for there skin colour, sex, political leanings or sexual preferences. Most murders stem from a complete disregard for human life.

    If someone thinks that whole groups of humans are worthless pieces of rubbish, or even scum, then killing them becomes so much easier. See the result of every terror attack on the UK in the last two hundred years for reference, or twentieth century Europe, or the USSR, or China, or US ethnic cleansing ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
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  28. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Ok, I don’t agree with you that misandry is an equal problem to misogyny. I think that’s simply trying to close down debate. Misandry isn’t helpful, is sometimes spiteful, even violent, but it’s really not at the same level.

    Also I really don’t think you meant ‘misanthropy’ or if you did it barely makes sense.
     
  29. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I agree entirely about the escorts, the porn, the drug use etc. Bear in mind I've seen police officers report other police officers via anonymous anti-corruption processes for using the police station jet wash to wash their own car after duty, or nabbing some milk from the fridge for a cuppa, or something else trivial. And then professional standards detectives appear as if by magic to investigate these allegations of breaches of discipline or orders. It honestly blows my mind that there's a police station somewhere out there where Couzens could act like that so openly and not attract the attention he clearly deserved. It can only be down to weak leadership.

    Likewise the two clowns who took selfies with the dead women, although I believe they got caught because colleagues saw the photos and reported them.

    There are though elements of it all that, with the greatest of respect, you'll just never get. You can't send people to emotionally damaging and life threatening situations day in day out and then deprive them of the release valves that keep most of them sane. Police humour, like the job itself, can be extreme. I can't begin to objectively explain it because to do so would upset most normal people. (I did just try to write one out but honestly, it's impossible). In my experience though it's almost all completely harmless.

    Society gets the policing it deserves. Respect and attitudes towards the police have dropped significantly as the WW2 generation have passed away and a new one has replaced them. Criticism and armchair policing comes from all quarters. I'm afraid a lot in the police see the public as hostile because, sadly, the vast majority of people they encounter are. It would help tremendously if the media and politicians and, yes, the police themselves, could work together to heal that rather than stoke more divisions.
     
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  30. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    I am clearly not trying to shut down debate. As I say, I work in a predominantly female environment, and have seen and suffered misandry to an extent that has ended up in serious complaint. Misandry is, without doubt, responsible for a great deal of friction between the sexes, partner abuse and male mental illness, every bit as much, if not more, as with misogyny. If you were watching the Labour conference, you may have seen many, many examples of men being told not to put their hand up, despite having questions they would like to ask. If that is not institutional misandry, what is? There were also plenty of claims about the superiority of women (when they can agree on what a woman is) and the evils of men. You may not wish to call it misandry, or acknowledge its effects, but it is pretty redundant for someone to say "no, they didn't say what they just said", "criticising men for being men is not misandry" or "all women short lists is not misandry".

    If you are telling me that misandry is not an issue, I have to disagree with you, or assume that you consider it some type of virtuous means to an end. Likewise, if you tell me that I am trying to shut down the debate, I will tell you that you are not only shutting down the debate, but also denying the relationship between the two issues, both of which would seem to only encourage the other, and a desire for it to be discussed on this forum.

    I am afraid I cannot help you with misanthropy. I assumed you would understand its meaning, or would look it up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
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  31. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    How did you know that it was because you are a man?
     
  32. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Because of the nature of the situation, whereby, I, health care professional, was told that men couldn’t fully appreciate certain situations, and therefore should not work in a particular department. Which was quite ridiculous, because a man was, to her chagrin, already working in the department, and there were plenty of male heads of similar departments around the country. She actually put her argument in a hearing, and genuinely expected men to be removed from the department. She just felt it had come to a head when they tried to put a second man in there.

    I also had to ask in a meeting when an equipment provider would be installing the technology that would allow men to work on some shiny new machines we had been using for two years. When I explained to the head of department that not a single man had been rotated through, she became visibly angry, and told the female supervisor to see her afterwards. Men have, since then, been an ever present feature on those machines. When I asked the supervisor why she hadn’t rotated men on those shiny new machines, her genuine answer was ‘I need people I can trust’.

    Have you ever worked in a predominantly female area, with female bosses? Generally it is no problem at all, but miss dry certainly plays a part.
     
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  33. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    That's pretty unusual. Were the 'certain situations' female care or imaging?
     
  34. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    I'm not going to go into the ins and outs of my work, but suffice to say, the department head, the union and HR all agreed with you, that it was pretty unusual for her to deny men a rotation through that particular department. That was fifteen years ago, and not a single complaint has been made about men working there since the flood gates opened.
     
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  35. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Nothing more in fifteen years doesn’t suggest widespread misandry, but thanks for the diversion.
     

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