Transfer Talk & Suggestions

Yesterday certainly wasn't a good enough performance to make Edwards drop all his plans and play 4-3-3 imo, plus unless we get at least 1 more LB, we can't really properly plan to play it because we're always 1 injury/suspension away from crisis in that area

 

Agreed. I hope we stick with 352 as well, so we need a LCB + a replacement for WTE if he does go. A flying RWB should definitely be a priority too.

 

I disagree. First half was best half of football we played this season imo and it was evident the formation suits our players more. If we were to sell Sarr then it is a different story as we'd have pretty much no wingers.

If we keep Sarr we need another winger I think, and if we sell him then we need a rwb.

 

Estupinan joining Brighton for €17mil apparently. So I guess we will be making €1.4mil off the profit with the 20% sell on clause.

 

Seems like a bargain for Brighton

 

Birmingham and Preston both play 3 at the back, so I imagine we will revert to that. Wouldn't surprise me if we look to match teams up this season, particularly after the WBA disaster.

 

Pollock is similar to Sierralta in the sense that he's good in the air and attacking the ball, but in other ways is more similar to Cathcart in that he's slow and a liability with balls over the top/in behind.

WTE ddi fine when he came on in the last few minutes vs WBA when Sierralta went off injured. I'm not convinced Pollock is up to standard yet and a back 4 and/or keeping WTE is more sensible than throwing Pollock in when he's not good enough.

 

Personally I just don't like 3 at the back.

You need at least one really good CB and really good WBs to make it work.

Especially when you're going to be favourites in most matches. Just seems like a waste to have all those CBs marking no-one much of the time.

 

Will be interesting to see the make up in numbers of the squad when someone updates it, 4 outs Dalberg, Samir, Dennis and Fletcher with Choudhury and Davis coming in, a few more outs to go I expect

 

I've always felt the same. I'm sure I'm missing something and people who know far more than I do like it a lot. We looked reasonably good defensively with a compact back four against Burnley and you end up having to lose either a midfielder (which is suicide against a side who plays 3 like West Brom) or an attacker (which seems unnecessary given we should be on the front foot in this division). I don't think we have the right wing backs for them to provide the main wide threat and I don't think we have the creativity in midfield to play through the middle. I've just never quite got it. I'd genuinely love to understand what the benefits are.

 

It really wasn’t. The quality from both teams was dire. However, I do agree about the formation, although having Kamara back on the left had a lot to do with that.

 

Yep, when we were looking for our manager in the summer I had a brief discussion with LouOrns about this after he said it was "the best formation in football" - during the discussion I posted the below:

"There is an argument that 3 at the back can help teams which are underdogs, but then you look at what someone like Villareal (or Burnley) have managed in recent seasons to see that's not necessarily the case either. We also got promoted with 3 at the back but had our most successful season in the PL playing 433.

One major problem which does exist though with 3 at the back is it requires a more specialised set of players than 433. Most managers and most squads at the top level will be optimised, utilised and drilled for a 433. Switching to 3 at the back could require different types of players and longer-term backing. Brighton and Brentford have done this in sticking with the same manager over seasons and bringing in players for their style of play, but if you're liable to change managers more often, as we have done, then optimising your squad for 3 at the back can maybe limit your options."

https://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/next-seasons-manager.59276/page-13#post-3125438

With the debate that's also in the Burnley match thread about whether it's a plus from Edwards or a failure from the club that we switched to the 433 I'd say it's more a plus for Edwards.

We looked much more disjointed with 3 at the back and more comfortable in the 433, and it wasn't purely down to the personnel either. In general there were too many spaces left across the pitch before, and as you say often the 3rd CB is redundant as we've not really been underdogs.

As per my earlier post it also still is the case that 3 at the back does "require a more specialised set of players than 433" and it could be asking a bit too much for us to literally overhaul half our team in one summer to switch to it when it's not even been established whether most suitable, whether the manager thinks it's essential, and whether we're convinced by the manager. I think Edwards has already shown enough already to suggest he's worth sticking with, but part of that is from him showing he's willing to change things that aren't working, which the 3 at the back wasn't initially.

We may eventually shift back to the 3, but ideally it requires the LCB and RCB to be better on the ball than we currently have, and also the 2 strikers to be better at holding the ball up than any of ours have been so far. Signing Davis might help a bit with the latter part now at least - from what I've seen so far he and Sarr might even work as a pair if we manage to keep Sarr, in a Toney/Mbeumo kind of way, with Davis playing more back to goal and Sarr running the channels.

As an aside, regardless of which formation we continue with we still need another CM as well this summer, even though Choudhury seems a good signing.

 

Playing well with a back three depends on the quality of outside CBs and wing backs. So far we've failed Edwards and only have a couple of weeks to get it right. If he's left with this bunch when the window closes then he has every right to feel let down by the club.

 

I’m not sure he would have been actually let down, we are going from a season where we were hopeless and trying to turn that around immediately is no small task, with players he wouldn’t necessarily want on long contracts and high wages making them unattractive to other clubs (I’m thinking of Sema, Cathcart and Kabbs ) etc not the highest earners but ok for the league we are in

we have shown so far we can win games, even beaten Burnley who we lost at home to not that long ago in the P.L. I think the club are doing what they can with playing personnel changes and come 1st September R.E. will have to make the best job with what his has, the basis is there he has to tweak it, remember the Pozzo’s are player traders hence so many miss-fits joining the party

 

"Failed" is a bit much. I think he's probably been in the game long enough to know that you can't expect your final squad to be assembled before the season starts.

They don't deserve it, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt after Hamza and Davis' arrival. Definitely more needed but there's still lots of time

 

Really? A left sided centre back and a quick RWB isn't much to ask for. It'll be an absolute disgrace if the club don't get him what he needs, especially after all the money we've brought in this summer. The club said they would back Edwards and after two months we could be back to the head coach making do with what he gets, even having to move away from his preferred system in the process! Both Edwards and the fans should be furious if key positions aren't sorted in the next couple of weeks.

 

The key to 3 at the back is 2 wing backs who are a real attacking force. We don’t have that yet. There is a real danger here that we end up a half way house without the ideal line up for either system.

 

I think formations don't mean that much in reality, it's more about the managers player-specific instructions of where they're meant to be at certain times in attack or defence?
Eg, when I played LB in my early days, we mostly had 3 back when we had the ball.. If RB moves up into midfield then LB came back around a slotted into left of 3 + called the offside shouts. Then your deep centre mid was there to cover if you lose the ball.
You can play 352 in diff ways as well. Some poor teams play more like a 532 which is so defensive, and if you play 352 with proper wingbacks, you should only ever have one of them over the halfway line and then the opposite wb should drop in slightly so you can almost be a 442 at times.
Anyway, what do i know... Its all so complex these days (or maybe this is why so many players struggle - head too full of instructions rather than play a natural game)?

 

Or - we can choose to believe Edwards when he said he was happy with the squad for this season and didn’t envisage a huge summer of change.

He always said there would be more outgoings than incomings.

Now, I’m with you. I still think the squad is short on quality in areas. But I don’t think we should be just assuming with absolute certainty that Edwards has been/will be let down, unhappy etc. He certainly isn’t coming across as impatient or demanding. Maybe he is happy with his lot by-and-large.

 

It's very bizarre, I noticed that during my absence you appeared to have changed your attitude in posting quite a bit to be less critical - and almost filled in at times in suggesting giving the benefit of the doubt and being more cautiously optimistic, as I'd tended to do on here.

 

I don't think that's been the main issue - in theory both Sema and Kamara should be capable of offering a good amount in attack at this level from wing-back. I'm aware Kamara was playing on his wrong side but he still should have been capable of running forward more, even if his end product might lack from his weaker foot. It's also true that I've criticised Kamara for being too conservative and unwilling to use his pace to get forward in general, wherever he's playing, but that's something which operating as a WB and a bit of coaching could help with.

Still, we should have been able to see more of them in attack during the first two games regardless, and the main reason why we didn't is because we struggled to get the ball and the team up the pitch to help enable them to join in the attacks. Our distribution from CB wasn't accurate or quick enough in trying to find the wing-backs initially, and when they went long instead we had no one capable of holding the ball up to enable to the wing-backs to run forward and support them. It also didn't help that Cleverley often kicked the ball straight in to touch whenever Kamara tried to do a one-two with him.

There aren't many full-backs at this level who'll be able to be prime Cafu and skin both the opposing winger and full-back at the same time in order to make something happen, but that was often what was being expected of them because they were stuck with the rest of the team defending deep and we couldn't either make space for them to operate in, or find the passes to them on the rare occasions when they did have space.

Sure we'd probably still need to sign a RWB if we were to play 3 at the back more often this season, as Gaspar on initial viewing vs Burnley actually appears more suited to RB or RCB, but it's not the main thing holding the formation back from functioning for us.

 

I don’t think Gaspar and Kamara are suited for RWB or LWB was my point. Sema is probably a better LWB. Doesn’t Kamara (who I like as a LB ) have really poor goal/assist career stats. ?

 

8000 top level minutes - 6 goals in that time frame isn't dreadful, but only 1 assist is indeed absolutely shocking!

 

Kiko leaves, all the noises are that we want a homegrown RWB. So we then sign a slower non-homegrown RWB and as a result miss out on Laird. Surely no one can think Edwards will be happy with just Gaspar when someone of Laird's profile was the aim.

 

Well obviously Laird wasn’t the aim as we signed Gaspar instead and then informed United that Laird wouldn’t be guaranteed game time.

Laird was a target but clearly not the priority.

And how about we give Gaspar a while before we decide what he is or isn’t?

 

I think it is fair to say that Edwards likes to play 5-3-2 and that Laird looks to have been perfect for RWB but Gaspar doesn’t. He may be a great RB or RCB but not sure he will have the pace or energy to be a great RWB.

 

Then why didn’t we confirm to United that he would get regular game time?

I’m not disagreeing with the theory - but the rush to criticise is very odd given the circumstances and the fact there’s still over 2 weeks left of the window.

Edwards has had one season as a senior head coach. Sure he’s had a preferred system to date but it’s hardly something he’s used year after year. He’s young enough to adapt or change the set-up. Maybe with us he wants Kamara/Sema as the attacking WB’s and for the RWB to be more defensively minded? At FGR his LWB was more defensive than Kane Wilson on the other side. So it would be a simple tweak and would also make sense given Sarr remains further up the pitch on the right.

 

Presume because the Board thought Gaspar had signed and they would make do ?
I agree we may still sign another fast RWB but not convinced we will so Edwards will have to adopt a different system of play Gaspar there.

 

Well Edwards has already decided that he isn't a "flying wing back" and he isn't.

I'm not convinced Laird would have been that great either though.

 

I presume the answer is we are talking about the same incompetents who thought Rose would do a job at left back in premier league last season?

 

I edited my post above so I’ve replied to the second point.

But if Laird was the target, why not just sign him and not Gaspar?

Once more - I always feel like I need to qualify this statement - but I’m no Gino, Duxbury, Giaretta, Mogi fan…far from it. But they’ve said Edwards has a big say in what types of player he wants and Edwards has happily confirmed this. I don’t see why everyone thinks different?

Sure, I don’t believe he specifically asked for Manaj, Bayo, Gaspar by name…but I do believe he asked for a profile of player and has been given them so far. I also suspect he did ask for Davis and Choudhury by name and they were secured.

I just think we should wait a couple more weeks and see how the squad looks and judge Edwards mood about it - I’m sure he will comment on it.

 

No I agree. Rank incompetence. But I do think at that point we were clearly buying players with zero input from Xisco, Ranieri and Hodgson.

I do genuinely believe Edwards has greater input than they did. Sure, it’s not full autonomy but it’s never going to be for as long as we are owned by who we are.

 

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that we have another player lined up.

Utd are probably still miffed at us for Garner, and would probably have stipulated he plays x numbers of games otherwise he gets recalled.

 

I’m guessing but expect they were after Laird, then Gaspar came available on a free, and they thought “he’ll do”.