No. Except when certain posters on here talk about a made up player called 'Serrialta'. Then it's the noose, every time.
Grimes moving for £4m to Fulham. This Hughes and Chalobah situation is incredibly unhelpful. Grimes, Olise and Gilmor all available for relative peanuts would have been decent replacements. Two of them gone to relegation rivals. Hopefully my spelling is all in order.
Nope, it's Gilmour, but only one out of five is an improvement. That seems pretty cheap when they supposedly rejected about 8mil from us last summer. I don't see either Grimes or Gilmour as improving us though, there are better options still available. We'd have never got Olise ahead of Palace so it's no use worrying over.
Gilmour has looked good any time he's played for Chelsea, but they're a world class team on their day so I suppose it's easier to look good for them than a team like us or Norwich. Will more than likely go on to be far better than us, but for now, I don't think the bottom of the Prem is the right place for him, was there not a team in Europe he could have gone to? Said on here that I don't think Grimes is any better than decent Championship level, might be decent depth in the Prem, but certainly not better than Hughes or Chalobah. To get Olise we'd have needed £8m up front, and even then he may have turned us down. We need a midfielder for sure (please be Yokuslu!), but none of those would have been a realistic option for us in our current situation
He only has a year left on his contract now - I guess they were taking a gamble on getting promoted but now have to cut their losses. If we lose Hughes and Chalobah our midfield is Louza, Etebo,Cleverley, Gosling, Quina and Dele-Bashiru. I think both Grimes and Gilmour walk into that midfield to be honest. Why not? They are hardly in a different ballpark to us. We just didn't pay enough money as we chose to spend what little money we do have elsewhere.
The chat on here already based on some privileged insights has been that the reason Palace could instantly secure Olise was because they swooped in and paid his entire release clause upfront - something we would never have been able to do given our own mildly/relatively/catastrophically (delete as appropriate) precarious financial position.
Good window so far. Looking good for the season ahead so far. Couple more additions, with the obvious outgoings and this has quite possibly been our best window in a long time. They forgot Penaranda in the outgoings. Could add Phillips and Cukur to that as well, but they are not first team players.
I cannot believe they could not have found finance to make up the difference. The club clearly felt that was not the right thing to do. Without any of us having access to our finances or knowing the ins and outs of the Hughes/Chalobah situations it is hard to judge whether that was the right call at the time. I'm not really blaming the Pozzos; I am just saying that this situation is incredibly unhelpful.
But it wasn’t a difference of £3m. Because we offered £5m in instalments and Palace are widely reported to have paid £8m in full. Our instalment offer probably had an initial payment of £2m-ish. So we would have had to find £6m extra roughly. I don’t think that’s easy for a club that lost over £30m that we know of - and likely a whole lot more since. I imagine in previous PL seasons, we could have found an extra few million or whatever down the back of the sofa for such deals. I just think we have to accept the financial picture really and probably suspend any criticism of the owner/club for not spending more. I just don’t think we can unless the deals are structured very favourably.
Palace spending that Zaha money. £8mil upfront for Olise £20mil+ for Guehi £20mil for Anderson £10mil for Kabak (if the deal happens) No chance in a Covid market are they spending all that without knowing something is coming back.
That’s a heck of a lot of dipping. Not disagreeing, I’m sure they are helping, but I do think Zaha being sold has something to do with their spending.
They have spent very little in a number of years despite being in the PL for a number of years with wealthy owners and a few sales along the way. With how much they have trimmed off the wage budget this summer, I dont think it is that odd that they are spending.
To be fair - I did say I am not blaming the Pozzos for this (although I do think letting an important player like Hughes get to <1 year on his contract was a bit daft). I am just saying the current situation is making things very difficult for us. We can't do our business until Hughes and Chalobah are either sold (to generate funds), or renew their contracts (so we know the composition of the midfield). If we hadn't spunked away £7.5m on Pussetto, or had sold him rather than loaning him out again, maybe we could have paid up. Another stupid deal which is now hamstringing us.
I meant more the Hughes / Chalobah situation. Not knowing whether Hughes / Chalobah will be playing for us in a months time or whether they will be sold. Not being able to bring in replacements until they are sold as we don't have any money. Hughes / Chalobah seemingly not in full training despite it being pre-season because the club don't want to risk assets that might be sold.
Pozzo paper-shuffling isn't really money lost. And maybe no other clubs actually put in a decent offer to buy Pussetto, meaning he remained of more value to be kept in the Pozzo network (he has played for Udinese), thus saving their funds which they may have needed to spend on a Pozzo replacement to go elsewhere.
I agree about the Hughes thing. That said, he was never going to sign a new deal last summer with a season in the Championship to come. And the summer before that, he had 3 years left on his deal and Doucoure and Capoue were firmly first choice in CM...so there was obviously no panic from club or player then, purely because we had had a good season and I don't think the club considered a relegation in 12 months to even be a distinct possibility. Hughes' situation is purely another by-product of our relegation annoyingly.
Leventhal has 'updated' the situation this morning and now stating Hughes has indeed turned down the deal on the table, after previously saying it was just unsigned and still on the table. Does say Hughes in keen to explore other opportunities - but there's no interest to even explore right now. Considering he said he 'wasn't thinking about leaving' just a month or two ago, you have to wonder what's changed....
You'd imagine that there has been some interest from somewhere, or Vernazza has been telling him that at least. At least he's not keeping us hanging on anymore unlike Chalobah.
If I transfer my money out of my current account to the joint savings account, it then means I cant pay for things using my current account. The money might well be in our name, but we have no access to it and are deriving no benefit from it. What we have is in effect an IOU from them. We now desperately could do with the money, but they are unable to pay, hence us needing to take out loans to cover it. You cant just pretend that it is monopoly money or moving the car from one house to another. We have discussed quite a few times now that I couldnt care less about the Pozzo group of entities. I only support Watford. I recognise that the group doing better is beneficial to Pozzo, but I fail to see how the Pussetto situation was ever or will ever be beneficial to Watford FC.
Err, yes you do, you can just transfer it back from the savings account to the current account when you need it.
Not if the other party to the joint account has spent it. Udinese plainly don't have the cash to pay us - hence us having to take loans against what they owe.
I'm 100% with you on this. But I guess we shouldn't overlook the fact that they 'gave' us Sierralta and Perica last summer either. Sierralta is an international CB now and is probably worth what we paid for Pussetto. And whilst Perica was a failure by and large, we are told we are still trying to get some sort of fee for him.
I agree with a lot of that - as with many of these things COVID and relegation combined have made fairly minor misjudgements into absolutely massive ones, or at least they are having that effect. I do think it was slightly poor succession planning though. Capoue was over 30 and it was overwhelmingly likely Doucoure was going to leave one of these summers. Hughes was comfortably our 3rd best midfielder and had 3 years left on his deal at the time - it was a sensible time for us to get him tied down to a longer deal. Getting to that FA cup final was a chance to tie down our better players to long term deals and improve the squad as we looked to be a side going places. Instead we got into disputes with the players over bonuses and signed Craig Dawson.
Both were cast offs that were relatively useless to Udinese. Sierralta has developed into a good player but he wasn't expected to do so. He would no doubt have been on loan to a Serie B club had we not picked him up. Perica never really looked good enough for the championship, never mind Serie A. I suspect they were probably fairly happy to be rid of him. It was like us shifting them Prodl, Zeegelar, Behrami etc - it was probably as beneficial to them as it was to us to shift some of their dead wood that would never play and who they would struggle to sell for anything close to value but might be able to help out the other.
I wonder if the Pozzos had any idea that Sierralta would be so successful last season? Was a bit part player for various teams in Serie A and Serie B, so it was really no skin off Udinese's back, albeit he was a Chile international and seemingly perfectly suited for English football. Perica looked a fairly promising signing to me and quite a few people on here (though again, he was no real loss to Udinese), he at least seemed as if he'd be solid backup, but unfortunately for whatever ability he has, he's made of paper
According to Leventhal so I decided to put StatsBomb to the test - I focused the search on 4 key areas: Pressure Regains: Times a player’s team won the ball back within 5 seconds of the player pressuring an opponent Pressures: The number of times a player pressures an opposition player PAdj Tackles: Number of tackles adjusted proportionally to the possession volume of a team PAdj Interceptions: Number of interceptions adjusted proportionally to the possession volume of a team The other stats on the templates are defined as follows: Passing%: Percentage of all passes attempted that were completed Deep Progressions: Passes and dribbles/carries into the opposition final third xG Assisted: This is calculated from the expected goal value of the assisted shot xGBuildup: A model that attributes the xG value of the final shot to all players involved in the entire possession. While another metric named xGChain attributes this value to all players involved in the entire possession, xGBuildup omits xG and xG Assisted to focus on possession work prior to the end of the chain Successful Dribbles: How often a player successfully dribbles past an opponent Turnovers: How often a player loses the ball via a miscontrol or a failed dribble I also only searched for leagues that we're pretty much guaranteed to get a work permit from (although not an exact science as we might be able to get a work permit for some players but not others in some of the leagues so they've been missed out) and those that had played at least 1800 mins (the equivalent of 20 full 90 min games) - that gave me a list of 14 players that are exceptional in those categories above that play in midfield. Once we remove the definitely unattainable from that list (Enock Mwepu - who's just joined Brighton, Pedri and Kalvin Phillips) we're left with 11 players. After each player i've added an estimated value, this is by no means definite, i've simply used 150% of their Transfermarkt value so isn't perfect (especially for the younger players) but is a decent ballpark figure. Now full disclosure, I don't recall ever watching any of these players play - so this is focused purely around data, so let's get cracking: Dean Huiberts At 6"1 it looks like he'd meet the physicality required for the role we're after and he shows up very well in the data, in the top 14% for pressures (the number of times a player pressures an opposition player), the top 7% for pressure regains (Times a player’s team won the ball back within 5 seconds of the player pressuring an opponent) as well as the top 7% for tackles and top 16% for interceptions. Looks to be an above average dribbler and passer for his position. Downsides are he's really young and has only played 1 full season (he only played 708 mins in 19/20). His numbers in 19/20 weren't as good (although his tackling + pressure numbers were good he was poor at intercepting and actually winning the ball from his pressing). Also a relatively poor league where CMs rarely move on to teams abroad unless you're very very good. Might be a solid pickup for a Championship team but the PL would most likely be too huge a gap for him to step up to. Est Value: 810k Djibril Sow A very interesting profile - superb at interceptions + tackling but the pressing numbers take a bit of a dip but are still very good for his position. Superb passing numbers and doesn't often lose the ball although the deep progression (passes and dribbles/carries into the opposition final third) and dribbling numbers suggests that he keeps it neat and tidy in possession rather than taking risks. At 6"0 he ticks the physicality box and has 18 caps for Switzerland and played at the Euros which would suggest he could make the step up to the PL. I doubt they'd sell cheap though which may price us out. Est Value: 20.25m Eric Martel A 6"1 19 year old who can either play DM or CB, absolutely exceptional defensive numbers along with great passing numbers. Similarly to Sow, from the numbers it looks as if he doesn't take many risks in possession. This was his first season in a professional league and it's a pretty poor league so I'd be surprised if he could make the jump to the PL straight off the bat. I also just googled him and found he was on loan from RB Leipzig which probably puts him out of our price range, imagine he'll probably get loaned to RB Salzburg this season. Est Value: 2.43m Joao Palhinha Wow. Absolutely insane defensive numbers, basically in the top 6% of all midfielders in all the defensive categories. Some great passing numbers as well. At 25 he's a good age and a 6"3 would be quite a presence in midfield. Downsides are that Sporting are unlikely to sell cheap and the fact that he's recently broken into the Portuguese national team (including going to the Euros) which may well price us out. Has had similar numbers in the Portuguese league for the last 3 years which indicates consistency - at the Euros his tackling numbers were superb but lacked the interception + pressing numbers that he's shown in the league, but he did only play 122 mins so it's quite a small sample size. Est Value: 28.34m Konstantin Maradishvili Hmmm, great defensive numbers in the league but just had his first full season in the first team in a relatively poor league. Defensive numbers (other than tackles) didn't translate at all to the 540 mins he played in the Europa League. Not great at passing but the other numbers (turnovers, deep progressions + dribbles) suggests that he might take more risks than some of the other players we've looked at. CSKA aren't short of money and don't tend to sell their players to foreign teams cheaply. Too many red flags for me. Est Value: 3.38m Lucas Schoofs A lot of red flags - last season was his first full season in the top flight (which at 24 isn't ideal) and whilst his numbers are decent I doubt he can make the step up from a poor league at 24. Est Value: 878k Maxence Caqueret Insane numbers across the board and looks to be a fantastic ball winner plus much more, his deep progressions and dribbling numbers suggest that he likes to dribble and potentially take risks, whilst his passing numbers remain superb. However he's still young and this was his his first full season as a starter for Lyon. His numbers the season before last (where he was mostly used as a sub) were also good but he lost the ball much more so it's a good sign that he's added that to his game. Lyon probably won't sell cheaply however. On the small side at 5"9 as well. Est Value: 22.95m Maxime D'Arpino Was in Lyons academy before spending a year on loan in Ligue 2, before joining his loan club permanently the year after where he spent 2 seasons before joining Oostende last summer. Now 25 and only having 1 top flight season under his belt (and that's in a relatively poor league) I doubt he can make the step up to the PL. Some interesting passing numbers though, poor accuracy but a lot of deep progressions and xG assisted which suggests he might be quite creative and takes a lot of risks in his passing. Est Value: 3.38m Niklas Dorsch Looks a very similar profile to Maxence Caqueret in that he looks like a very good all-rounder with some exceptional defensive numbers. The Belgian league is typically not fantastic, but he was playing for one of the better teams in the league and his numbers held up well in the Europa League as well. Has a good pedigree having spent 6 years in the academy at Bayern Munich (before joining Heidenheim on a free transfer in the 2. Bundesliga in the pursuit of first team football) and making 13 appearances for Germany U21s . Is a good age but is on the small side at 5"9, could be worth a punt as it looks like his career is on the upward trajectory and would be significantly cheaper than Maxence Caqueret. Although i've just searched his Transfermarkt and found out he's just joined Augsburg for £6.2m. Ffs. Est Value: 10.8m Ramiz Zerrouki Good defensive numbers, rest of the numbers suggests he keeps it neat and tidy. However only has 1 full season of first team football under his belt in a relatively poor league. Has also declared for Algeria (making 4 appearances so far) meaning we'd lose him for AFCON. Est Value: 810k Raul The only non European entry! I've just noticed this isn't from last season as we're 13 games into the Brazilian season so it's defaulted to the current season, however his numbers last season were also very good (but not as good in some aspects of his game, which could either suggest development or just the smaller sample size messing with the data). Superb defensive numbers along with some other good numbers - particularly the passing + deep progressions. He's a good age to try and progress up to a higher level and his data from a relatively decent league suggests he might have the quality to do so, but coming from a team from the Red Bull group probably won't be cheap. Est Value: 2m Summary So to summarise, the only only players who I think (based on data alone) who could potentially make an immediate impact in the Premier League are: Djibril Sow - Eintracht Frankfurt - Est Value: £20.25m Joao Palhinha - Sporting CP - Est Value: £28.34m Maxence Caqueret - Lyon - Est Value: £22.95m Niklas Dorsch - Gent (now Augsburg) - Est Value: £10.8m Raul - RB Bragatino - Est Value: £2m I can't see us spending above 20m on a midfielder (unless we manage to get around that by selling Nate + Hughes), which leaves Raul (since it's unlikely Dorsch will leave Augsburg without playing a single game for them) as the only potentially viable option. Not gonna lie I was a bit disappointed to not find more viable players in our price range but I guess good players cost a lot of money, who knew? All in all a waste of time (that you've now shared by reading this), and now I feel sorry for our recruitment department.
Great post @reids. Frustrating with Dorsch. I remember when he moved a couple of recruitment people I follow on Twitter were disappointed he wasn't making a more 'ambitious' step up but I think he wanted to move to be near family. If we're looking for a pure ballwinner, how about (evergreen transfer link alert) Walace from Udinese. He comes up well for tackles and interceptions on FBref but that isn't possession adjusted. I think Yokuslu would make a lot of sense as well. Adjusted seamlessly to the league and seemed to screen WBA's back four well. He'll be familiar with the role of playing for a crap team up against it every week. It seems that we're actually looking for two profiles of midfielders. The other names Leventhal mentioned (Thorsby and Ferguson) are surely far more suited to more progressive roles as 8s. I'm imagining that unlike last year (where Hughes had a key role in ball progression) we want a pure ball winner at the base of midfield. I'd still us to try and make Amadou Onana of Hamburg work. I know that getting a work permit for him would be tricky but possible, but he looks like a real star in the making.
I suggested Dorsch on here 6 weeks ago after being impressed by him for the German U21s and also looking up his stats: https://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/transfer-talk-suggestions.54511/page-126#post-3012493 He probably would have still preferred returning to the Bundesliga though even if we had tried for him. The other options there generally look waaay too expensive, I doubt we'd spend more than 8mil on another midfielder, let alone anywhere near 20mil. What happens if you loosen the criteria ever so slightly? It appears somehow as if it's easier to put up such high numbers in such a position in crappy leagues like the Eredivisie. Yokuslu must be pretty close to featuring.
We should sign the one with the best graph. Raul has the nicest colours. We should definitely go for him.
