Tom Cleverley - Head Coach

First Duck, now Gaffer Tape. Low grade DIY projects seem very apposite for the current iteration of WFC.

 

Yes, the same Verry Untenable who explained away a 4-0 defeat at the Vic on the ‘notorious sloping pitch.’ In a game that was 2-0 at HT.

 

Playing Bachmann before he is fully fit.
Thinking he was the man to get Louza interested again.
Firmly nailing his colours to the mast on Jebbison being his signing.

TC could do with a result and a bit of luck soon.

 

Don't forget the media support for Very Terribles from Jeff Powell and Brian Granville who in turn were very anti GT.

Not necessarily a QPR Rangers aspect but they certainly endorsed VT.

 

To be fair to him, he didn’t think he was the guy to get Louza interested again - Louza was up for sale all summer but Gino wanted far more than any sane club would pay. He genuinely felt he could turn a profit on a player who has always flattered to deceive, and didn’t look great back in France and a club that got relegated.

TC made it clear to the club that Louza wasn’t in his plans and wanted him gone. But given he’s still here, he has to keep him around the squad in a semi-meaningful manner.

 

A crap squad and an inexperienced head coach is going to equal some pretty inconsistent performances. I'm sure I'll be accused of accepting mediocrity but I'm more than happy to keep Cleverley and give him time to make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.

 

Essentially where I am too.

 

I said in the chat last night, there wouldn't really be any point in sacking him because nothing will change anyway and we'll only bring in someone of a similar standard, but I'm yet to see anything to suggest he's anything other than close to clueless and haven't witnessed really anything that justified this "promising young manager" label he's been branded with. Not all young managers are going to go on to be good managers in the top couple of divisions of the game. So far it's mostly just young manager, without the "promising" part, but we'll see.

 

Agreed there's really no point in sacking him. Yes he's made mistakes but they can be rectified.
We desperately needed and still need a proper CF, that could and would make all the difference imo. Someone with knowledge of the role who can hold the ball up and bring others into play and get on the end of some balls in the box. Yes it will cost money but surely the hierarchy can see this.

 

In think the promising young manager thing comes from what a shambles we’ve been the past few seasons. He’s won a few home games against decent teams and we aren’t battling relegation, that’s enough for most fans to cling on to as means for some sort of optimism.

The reality is he got the job by default, he’d done nothing at all in management prior to base any sense of optimism on, just another blind punt. For anything there is to be positive about, there are just as many things to be alarmed by. We're a mediocre championship team and in the long run he’s probably a mediocre championship manager. There are definitely managers who could do a lot better, but we don’t have the ability to identify them and if we did we wouldn’t support them in the way they would need us to. So as others have said, no point getting rid of him, but really he’s far from the messiah either. It’s just a case of accepting our fate as a bog standard team.

 

While all the criticism when a team underperforms is aimed at the manger … let’s not forget the huge numbers of coaching, performance, conditioning and medical staff clubs now have ….. the label that it’s all the managers fault is old and lazy …. Yes back in GTs first stint there was him, his assistant and maybe 1 other first team coach and a physio. A lot was on the manager then. Modern management is much more of a collaboration. If the manager gets pelters or gets sacked then the I genuinely think the entire backroom should go too - at least all the first team coaches.

Anyways…. I like TC, he is learning and we need to let him learn from his mistakes this season, let him rebuild this squad over 4 windows and see where we are. The starting 11 is still crying out for a GK, CM, and 2 strikers minimum that are of Championship quality now before he can be judged.

I personally think there’s a really good manger in TC but we need to be patient and give him time to develop, give time to build his squad before we judge. I honestly think we will start to see consistent improvement on the pitch towards the end of this season and next - this is a transitional season, whether we like it or not

 

Sacking TC is futile due to the owner (unless we
are in danger of the drop). The squad is poor.

That said I see little to suggest he is going to be a good manager so far. Seems prone to some bizarre decisions.

 

The decision to play Bachmann at L*t*n when not fit, not to take him off when clearly unfit then pronouncing he will play and playing him at Leeds is a serious of dodgy decisions. Also Bond whilst not great didn't deserve to loose his place
That added to TDB playing when clearly unfit too another negative

Interesting to see what happens next

 

We all know if we lose on Saturday, with two subsequent away fixture. It could be a five match losing streak.

Futile or not he will be gone if that happens. I reckon he needs at least three draws to steady the Gino axe.

 

I think the ‘promising young manager’ thing is largely because he’s English’s and partly because it’s his first job.

He’s not much older than Xisco was when he got the job - and I don’t think anyone ever gave him the same label.

 

Unfortunately due to the chaos that Pozzo has brought upon the club since he took over it makes it a really hard environment in which to properly judge a manager/coach.

Of course at any club if your recent results end up something like LLDLLLLLLDLLLLL then you'll be sacked. If this happens to us via the home form suddenly matching the away form (results based as improvements in how we lose won't make much difference) then TC is toast.

But there's always this nagging doubt (for me, anyway) under the Pozzo regime that because of the way he 'squad builds', it doesn't matter who is in charge as they will ultimately fail eventually. The better of the appointments just last that little bit longer (see Javi Gracia v Sánchez Flores mk2). The only unknown is whether it's 10 games, 10 months or a few weeks in to a second season.

We used to lurch from the disciplinarian to the jovial comedian then back to the disciplinarian. Recently we've now switched from the very experienced (Wilder, Ismael) to the energetic novice in TC. If I was a betting man, I'd say our next head coach will be somebody back in the experienced category (even if that experience is 8 years in the Moldovan 4th tier).

They knew TC was a novice when they appointed him. They knew he lacked any experience. They had to expect he'd make mistakes along the way (playing Dan when injured and expecting to play nice pretty football at the kennel for example) and therefore they should ensure that the sword of Pozzocles isn't dangling over him so early.

But this is Pozzo. He doesn't change. He doesn't want to change. His way is the right way. So no, I don' think TC will be given any extra leeway despite being handed a squad that doesn't have a centre forward. When the results really go south, he'll be gone. It's just a matter or when, not if (see paragraph 3).

And that, for me, will have negated the whole reason for putting a novice in charge. If you're not prepared to give him time to learn, you should have never put him in to begin with.

I really hope for TC's sake the home form stays as it is. Blackburn is a huge game (it shouldn't be, but it is).

 

Certainly not acting cleverley recently.

 

The thing that bothers me is the Luton game thing. He’s played 350+ games under some of the best managers ever. He should know the type of game it’s going to be there. A cursory look at the pitch would tell you, we ain’t passing the ball much today. But it was beyond him. That isn’t something you have to learn as a manager, that’s elementary football knowledge. Nor did he try and change things until it was game over and it ended up being worse.

We’ve conceded 19 goals in 11 games. We’ve been slapped around game after game, especially away. He’s picking an unfit goalkeeper, just because.

None of this stuff should need to be picked up as he goes. He’s lived it. Played at the highest of levels. If anything, his ability to manage in-game should be his biggest strength.

I’ve always liked the bloke. I thought he was great from day 1 of his loan all those years ago. I followed him when he left because of that. I was overjoyed when he came back and he delivered several all time moments - the winners against Palace and Arsenal for example. I was calling for him on here to take over from Ismael when everyone thought that guy was great. I really want him to be a success.

I just don’t think he will be. Not in this environment, not here, not under the pressure he no doubt finds himself. He needs to stop second guessing himself and play the football he started with. If the job was ‘too big’ for the likes of Edwards and Ivic, it might be even bigger for Cleverley. I hope it isn’t.

 

Can't refute any of this. All I can suggest is that every manager/coach under Pozzo has ended up making strange decisions/team selections/tactics etc. Gracia keeping Sarr on the bench, Pearson constantly playing injured Deeney over Welbeck just a couple of examples off the top of my head.

It seems as though anyone who spends time around the place eventually loses the ability to think straight, possibly as a result of the pressure/chaotic environment created by the owner. Things that should be obvious seem to become the opposite.

Of all his managerial appointments, the one that excited me the most was Silva. I really thought we were on to something. But if you were to search this forum I'm sure there are posts from me demanding he be sacked. We completely fell to pieces under him and it looked like he didn't have a clue. The easy excuse is because he was distracted by Everton's interest but I've seen enough from Pozzo by now to believe that he (Silva) wanted out quickly because he knew he couldn't succeed here with the way the club operates and it affected his ability to manage the team in the way he did at the start.

On the other hand, maybe it really is just as simple as TC not being very good and the home form is another anomaly like the long range screamers and will eventually dry up. I really hope not also.

I didn't want Tom to get the job - not because I'm some football expert - but because I know it will end with the sack. Eventually. I've never wanted Troy to get the job either for the same reasons but he seems to have sorted that out himself after FGR.

If all our coaches really have just been 'not very good' - look who it is who keeps appointing this calibre of candidate.

This has been covered to death in its own thread, but imo for the club to move on it needs to see the back of 'the stability'.

 

I don't want him sacked. But our owner will not change. If the home form goes, he's had it. In which case if they're not prepared to give a novice more leeway, they shouldn't have put him in charge to begin with.

 

Really good post.

 

Big home game coming Saturday. Win that (with bond in goal) and things will settle down again.

 

9th after 11 games is alright. Cleverley in.

 

It's all very well us lot saying , as we eat our cornflakes, "what was he thinking ?" or " why did he do that ? " Pressure is a strange thing ,no doubt . So, IMHO , TC needs an old head, sat next to him, who has been around the block a few times who might whisper in his ear "are you sure about that , Tom ?"

 

Hodgson or Ranieri?

 

Just one thing to add to that. Back in GT’s day the manager was also almost entirely responsible for scouting and recruiting new players, which is far from the case now. No matter how good a coach is he won’t be successful if he doesn’t have the right (good) players.

 

When we were last not in a ‘transitional season’?

No Watford manager will get the chance to rebuild a team over 4 seasons now, that’s just fantasy. The owner doesn’t operate like that, we bring in promising players that have no relevance to the direct needs of the first team so they can be sold for profit as soon as possible, and plug holes with short term solutions like Ogbonna etc.

Our solution to our striker crisis this season was to loan a crap one in, and loan the best of a very bad bunch out. That’s not transition, it’s incompetence.

It’s a lovely romantic vision to believe Tom could build to something in four years time, with a team that incrementally improves and gets upgraded as we go, but if you think that will genuinely happen where have you been for the past few seasons? It was the same vision people had for Edwards, or Val. It’s never going to happen, and it won’t be any different just because it’s Tom Cleverley in the dugout, regardless of how long he’s here.

 

Didn’t he have that Spanish chap and then sacked him?

 

He’s got Robbo now. A guy he definitely definitely definitely chose himself.