Tom Cleverley - Head Coach

No desire to see Cleverley gone - apart from the basic fact of his likeability, what would it actually change? Presumably not a great deal.

I would very much like to see him stopping being shyt in exactly the same ways over and over again, posthaste, though.

 

The more we see ‘performances’ like the last two, the more I think the problem is not that many players don’t want to play for (whichever) head coach, but that most of them realise they really can’t be ar5ed to go beyond the bare minimum for a club run the way ours is. Any head coach will maybe have a positive half a season, or even 2/3 of one, but then the malaise of disillusionment will take over and the season will fizzle out to nothing.

 

Tom claims Sissoko has been “fantastic” this season. I know you can’t hand your player out to dry but you can tread the line without making yourself look an idiot.

 

Perhaps he's always first to help make the tea, slice the oranges, and put the cones out ?

 

Where has he been "fantastic" does he say?
As a senior pro mentoring younger players?
As as spokesman for the squad?
Or on the pitch?
If it's the latter then I'm concerned because since October possibly before, he's been abject.

 

He says whatever he thinks he should be saying, without thinking about why he's saying it.

He's thick as dogshyt you see. No critical thinking skills.

 

I don’t believe he’s thick - far from it.

But I entirely agree that he makes so many contradictory comments, often in the same interview. And has openly been stating for a long while now that whilst he knows it’s his job to find out why we are so bad at times, he still hasn’t found out why and is pretty open that he is struggling to do so.

It’s pretty damning and just saying ‘oh but he’s a novice manager’ doesn’t really cut it. Being in your first year as a manager doesn’t mean you aren’t a grown man who can think about any he’s saying.

 

Reading TC’s latest comments about him now tailoring training sessions going forward to focus on ‘tightening up and doing the basics in both boxes with boring drills the players find boring’ (why that wasn’t prioritised months ago when these horrible performances started is beyond anyone’s guess), I suspect the clue is in his words.

He says it’s boring, repetitive work that players don’t enjoy. Which is likely a pointer to some of the characters we have in the squad. Players that want to do drills that are fun or make them stand out - not the ‘nuts and bolts’ stuff that makes you a solid team.

 

For starters I'd be happy if he simply just told the defenders to hoof the ball into the opposition corner flags for the first 10 minutes until we settle in to the game a bit. Might stop the early goals at least.

 

Hear, hear! Our players are so naive with this.

 

I agree . But I would also add to this ......where are the "leaders" on the pitch instructing the
team to slow the game down for 5 minutes or so ?.

 

Seems a decent and nice person, but maybe not enough balls for a Head Coach task, loan him out to a League Two side maybe.

Gone by February if he’s Sheite for Sheffield Utd, Cardiff, Derby, PNE and Cov.

I still love you though TC

 

It's a mid table squad in the same way last seasons squad was mid table, but just a different approach. It was interesting to see fans getting upset at losing Kone and Asprilla - both individually talented but not always effective enough, and Kone in particular would have been found out in a harder working squad that we have this season. This season our first 11 have a tiny bit more rigidity, but still lacking in depth.

I didn't buy into the pre season school of thought that we would go down. It feels like that stemmed from a few people online who get a thrill from giving an extreme view on most things (hence why most players are either terrible or generational, there isn't much in-between for the more dramatic characters). It was amplified when some two bob podcast predicted us to finish rock bottom, and for those who love an extreme point of view it was music to their ears - "See, even one of the most respected podcasts on the planet thinks we will finish bottom!!!!".

I think we are firmly a mid table squad and will finish that way. As some have pointed out, lose a few key players and we would then be in trouble but that works both ways - make a few shrewd signings and we would have a crack at the top 6. I 100% agree with TC's comments about needing a bit of Championship nous and experience and it is noticeable Burnley have just signed Ashley Barnes back from Norwich, probably for similar reasons.

I think TC has the makings of an excellent manager. I certainly don't agree with everything he does and is doing, but from a long suffering fans perspective this is the most enjoyable season for years and he deserves credit for that.

 

You cant make a silk purse out of a cows ear. We have too many cows so don't expect TC to perform miracles

 

I don't disagree but it wasn't just a few pessimists online who predicted relegation, IIRC, the bookies had us as bottom 3. I guess "mid-table" covers a wide range of positions say 9-15. I think if we finish top half we will have over-performed, not sure Gino will see it that way now we have spent a number of weeks around the PO places.

 

I do take your points and agree by-and-large. But we are now seeing Louza knuckle down and work hard in the Championship - so it’s not beyond the realms of possibility Kone would have done well also. But I didn’t see anyone really getting ‘upset’ at us selling either him or Asprilla? It was widely expected (especially for Asprilla) and regarded as good money for both deals wasn’t it?

Also - I don’t think it was just fans with ‘extreme’ views or a podcast that thought we would struggle. Bookmakers certainly felt the same and that industry rarely get it wrong, given its all based on them being correct far more than wrong. And I really doubt they built their odds purely off the back of a podcast and a few viewpoints you deem to be extreme.

 

But we are now seeing Louza knuckle down and work hard in the Championship - so it’s not beyond the realms of possibility Kone would have done well also. Fair point. I'm pleased Louza has come good recently, and like everyone I hope it lasts.

I saw plenty of noise in the summer when we sold Asprilla and Kone so I did see people getting upset by it. Asprilla wasn't a surprise and Kone wasn't a loss in my opinion.

Back on the main point - I like TC and think he has done well overall. Not perfect but he's done well. This is going to be a big test of everyone's mettle though as I suspect we are at the beginning of a sticky patch and we could be on for a few losses on the spin.

 

Too many of our players over the last few seasons have a massively overinflated view of their own capabilities. As a famous great golfer once said ‘the more I practice, the luckier I get.’ The very best in any field put in hour upon hour of ‘boring practice’ until the basics are so automatic to them their greater talent shows through. The only way for lesser talents to attempt to compete is to also be able to do the basics automatically.
The attitude TC is alluding to seems all too pervasive in modern football and we seem to sign a disproportionate number of such players. Probably a result of Pozzo’s fixation with ‘creative’ types he hopes to make most profit on.

 

It also aligns with Wilders comments in his Wobby interview.

 

I think the bit I’ve bolded is where the rubber meets the road or not as far as this season goes.

TC is now on record as saying he wants seasoned Championship players in this window (or at least players either experience of the type of games we will be in) but has alluded to our history of the owner signing younger talent who need to learn on the job. The end of the window should tell us if the owner is backing him.

 

I hope we stick with TC. Yes he makes mistakes, so does every coach out there and in fairness half way through the season he has got us to 8th with a chance of the play offs. Those that want him gone, what are your expectations of this squad, would a different coach be able to change our fortunes? Look at the squad? Central midfield and up front is desperately poor. Doumbia is not the answer although maybe in the future. The goals at QPR were not down to poor coaching, they were down to centre backs not doing their job, a job that as a professional footballer should be second nature.
Not sure why Dwomoh isn't getting more game time but him aside what other options does he have? Does he need a hand? He has the coach we brought in from Real Madrid B and Robbo, both fairly experienced although one not in The Championship
Maybe being in top half all season has made people forget about pre season expectations.
Last couple of games have been disappointing, Cardiff especially, but we've also had some excellent results and played some good football.
If you read this thread without prior knowledge of what was expected you would think that we were massive pre season favourites to win the league and only had to turn up to beat teams.
Stick with him and let him learn on the job, he really has had a fairly decent start to management resulting in relegation not even a factor at halfway through the season which I suspect all of us would have gladly accepted back in August

 

What I don’t understand is this train of thought where we can praise the manager for improving players (Pollock and Morris to name a couple) but when they make mistakes, it’s not his fault as a coach but their’s for not doing their job?

I want to keep TC and am nowhere near wanting him gone - but I think it’s very fair to blame him for continuous errors from players. It’s his job to make them better, be that mentally or technically.

 

Especially when many errors are probably due to not having ‘boring basics’ drilled into those players.

 

I’m sure TC’s heart will sink if he reads that last bit!

 

Absolutely he's made mistakes and my only real worry currently is that he doesn't seem to be learning from them. Players also make mistakes that are not the fault of the coach, you can only lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink.
Basically, he's made mistakes but has got us to a decent league position and I would hope he's got credit in the bank to at least see out the season. The fact you mention in another thread that a striker is not the top option (although defensive midfielder would be a close second) is a little worrying

 

My personal opinion on that list of priority position we want to recruit (again, personal opinion and not based on anything really at all…) is that we would like a midfielder in ASAP, not in the last moments of the window. I was a bit surprised by the talk of a defender being wanted but we haven’t seen Keban, we haven’t seen much of Ogbonna and there’s talk that maybe Porteous has been carrying an injury that needs dealt with - not to mention Sierralta has looked awful this season and seems to be coming to the end of his time with us. When you think of it like that, could be said we need a solid defender to come in.

As for the striker, again my personal opinion, but I think it’ll be a case of giving Bayo and Jebbison this month to improve (we know they won’t) and line deals up in the background to potentially pull the trigger on late on.

Or, from TC’s words to AF, reading between the lines when he was talking of needing to get the right players out - I wonder if the budget is there for the midfielder and defender but the strikers we like are on big wages - so we need to move big earners out.

 

The defender part makes sense as does the midfielder but god I hope your opinion on the striker is wrong!! I suppose Jebbison might improve but not seen much yet, Bayo will not improve though

 

If we could get someone like Iheanacho up front and an experienced Championship midfielder that would great, but who that might be I have no idea. We're well stocked up on central defenders, so there's no point looking there unless we offload someone like Sierralta.

 

Wonder how many games we’d get out of an unfit Iheanacho ?

 

Well, we managed to get 17 games out of Dennis last year and Iheanacho has played more minutes and more recently than what Dennis had at this point last year. He started for Sevilla only three weeks ago.

 

Do you think we got good value for the loan cost in those 17 games of an unfit Dennis ?

 

In isolation, probably not, but we could have gotten relegated without him…