Thoughts On A.i

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by SkylaRose, Aug 13, 2024.

  1. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Being a computer scientist this subject has always interested me.

    Let's look at the most popular known form of current A.I, "Chat GPT". It's a script - simple as that. It's coded in a language called "Python" and resides on an API (Application Programming Interface), which is connected to servers and threads via information streams known as 'pockets' or 'packets' of data heaps which read the input of a user, then searches the Internet for a solution before compiling together a readable solution and presenting it back to the user. All this is done within seconds due to the speed of the current signal transmission and data transfer.

    is it clever? Sure. But it's still just what it is, 'Artificial Intelligence'. It it wasn't the for developers behind it nothing would happen and we would of never heard of it. Chat GPT cannot work without it's buddy system of the Internet to cobble together it's results so as an intermediate A.I it would fail in the real world outside of touch-screen technology and smartphones. Anyone could write a clone of Chat GPT (many have) and they operate just in the same way. It has it's benefits but in my own view I do feel it has made certain sectors of information finding and writing rather lazy. Why put pen to paper when you can get a computer application to write it for you?

    Moving away from Chat GPT, if we look at A.I from a much broader concept. should we worry about it taking over our jobs? Well, this is a difficult question to answer. There are positions in some jobs that A.I can and currently does operate in. Look at car factories. Welding is done via huge mechanical arms that are using a very basic for of A.I - call and send. A message is sent to the CPU of the arm which instructs it how to move, where to move and when to stop/start etc. A.I can impact other roles that are taken up by humans as well. Many people who work in medical, transport and software will of course be concerned about A.I taking some of their roles in the futute.

    My answer remains the same even to this day. A.I is only as powerful as the team of people behind it. That is why self-aware A.I is almost impossible to develop. You can give a computer list of set commands to carry out, and it will do so without any argument. Developers can modify and maintain said instructions at anytime if they have access to the source code. For something to be made "self aware" it needs to be able to copy itself to carry out a task and not break that cycle. This seems possible, but then you have to consider, again, that these instructions to be "able to write the instructions" must be hard coded into the software before hand.

    Because programs can always be modified, there will always be a 'kill switch' in this respect.

    Let's look at a very basic example.

    Code:
    while Res = True loop
        Action := Do_Something();
        exit when Do_Something() = False;
    end loop;
    The above will carry on executing until the function Do_Something() returns a Boolean value of False. When that happens, the loop iteration will terminate and cease functioning. It's the same for A.I in this respect. It will always have a way to terminate, and because today's software tools will never run a loop forever (eventually it would write to the stack too much and crash) then stopping any sort of A.I always has a loop hole of termination. When you switch on your computer for example, your BIOS (Basic Input Output System) self checks all the RAM sticks, detect their is a working CPU and GPU, check the validity of the drives (HDD and SSD), request that a mouse and keyboard are present and if needed, clear the CMOSS battery.

    It does all this even before it posts something to the screen, and if a single one of those above checks fails, it will not "post" and start Windows up. It will generally beep in a certain order to indicate the problem, or if the problem is not critical it will post but boot the PC into 'Safe Mode'. Which allows you to tinker with the BIOS settings to find the fault. So what's the point of all this boring tech waffle? It matters because it proves no software is faultless. For an A.I to be self-aware it would need to be capable of never failing, and let's be honest as a race we have never designed/built any sort of system that has failed at least once.

    I have a lot of time for A.I and it's advances. But I think as a race, we should always be on the side of caution, Technology is a wonderful thing, and computing has come along way since Ada Lovelace wrote the first ever executable instructions for Charles Babbage. But it needs to be reigned it at all times. Advances in how we move forward must always be safety critical.
     
  2. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    My Son who works for a bank here in Norway is amazed by a new email answering AI they have for work. It's been in place a few months now. It's that effective that they're already looking to make cutbacks in staff.
    But it's exactly what he said, 99% of emails sent to said back could have their emails answered if they took time to read the banks website.
    Thanks for that post very interesting read for someone who hasn't even looked into AI with any great interest.
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  3. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I think programmers are over-rated :D.
    I was going to suggest that AI wrote this post, but there are little tell-tale signs that Skyla could of written it herself.
     
  4. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    Back in my uni days, we shared some lectures with the Cybernetics department. Infact I had a Cybernetics student in my student house.

    Had a couple of terms of lectures from Prof. Kevin Warwick. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Warwick
    It was all about "machine learning" then, mouse like robots solving mazes of their own accord. Not sure I really understood it properly but it was certainly interesting.

    The Cybernetics department's main claim to fame was constructing the chair Jimmy Saville used on Jim'll fix it. I'm not so sure they bang on about that now.
     
    SkylaRose and Carpster like this.
  5. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Chat GPT still has a long way to go. I tried using it for a DIY project which involved a lot of various lengths of wood (insert matron gif here) I wanted it to help me work out the minimum amount of planks I needed to buy to accommodate all the various cuts I needed, but also in the fewest cuts needed.

    As hard as I tried to explain it, and as detailed as I was with what I needed it to work out, it kept getting it completely wrong. I kept telling it they were wrong and explaining why, and then it would come up with a worse answer than before. In the end I worked it out myself, which I was capable of doing anyway but thought I’d see if it could make something like that slightly easier, and thus maybe other similar things in every day life, but it couldn’t.

    Make of that what you will.
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  6. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    That's pretty low-level software. If your looking that far into how a mouse would act, then decide on directions etc. I can only guess it was probably Assembly Language or the bare bones of C as it's as close to the 'metal' as you can get. Instruction sets would of been in a matrix, as of

    "Move Up"
    "Move Left"

    Then it would of had more detailed sub programs such as

    "Is this A Wall?"
    "Is this the Exit?"

    I think those are brilliant exercises to do, and it really makes you try to understand how the mouse would move/think/react. Which is what makes machine learning/CS so much fun.

    I would of guessed the issue it had was the numbers. It depends how deeply it understands the difference between metrics of a length, width and area. If you had written the sample sizes you needed in an equation I very much doubt it would of made much of a difference. As you said, Chat GPT is still in it's infancy, and will probably take a few years to be useful outside of deciding what to have for breakfast.
     
  7. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    I asked chat gpt to summarise this thread:

    The discussion on the WFC Forums about AI touches on a variety of perspectives. Participants generally express a mix of curiosity and concern regarding AI's rapid development. Some users highlight the potential benefits, like AI's ability to assist in various industries, while others worry about the ethical implications, such as job displacement and privacy concerns. There's also a shared sentiment of uncertainty about how AI will continue to evolve and impact society in the coming years. The opening poster, SkylaRose, is clearly a thicko.
     
  8. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    I think it was the mouse deciding itself what to do to solve the maze, more machine learning I think than AI. This was 30 years ago. I feel old now:oops:

    Watching the thing go from taking hours to solve a maze down to solving an unseen new maze in seconds was incredible back then. Let's face it the internet barely had a browser at that stage so this was impressive ****.
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  9. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    upload_2024-8-15_16-9-16.png

    Spot on, second Paragraph. Love ya RC x
     
  10. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    On Watford FC forums, “COGs” stands for “Crusty Old Gits.” This term is often used humorously to refer to long-time, older fans who have been supporting the club for many years. These fans are known for their deep knowledge of the club’s history and their often nostalgic views on how things used to be.

    COGs can be quite vocal on forums, sharing their experiences and opinions on the current state of the club compared to the past. They add a unique perspective to discussions, often providing historical context and a sense of continuity for newer fans.

    On Watford FC forums, “bedwetters” is a term used, often humorously or pejoratively, to describe fans who are perceived as overly pessimistic or quick to panic about the team’s performance. These fans might frequently express concerns or frustrations, especially during tough times for the club.

    The term contrasts with “COGs” (Crusty Old Gits), who are typically seen as more nostalgic and perhaps more patient due to their long-term support of the club. Both groups add to the dynamic and diverse discussions on the forums, reflecting the wide range of emotions and opinions among Watford FC supporters.
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  11. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    @wfcmoog:

    "Moog” is a well-known and respected poster on Watford FC forums. Known for his witty and often humorous takes on the club’s happenings, Moog has become a bit of a legend among the Watford FC online community. His posts are frequently cited and discussed, adding a unique flavor to the forum discussions.

    If you’re looking for some entertaining and insightful commentary on Watford FC, Moog’s posts are definitely worth checking out.
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  12. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Here are a few other notable contributors on Watford FC forums who are well-regarded by the community:

    1. Reids: Known for his detailed statistical analysis and tactical breakdowns, Reids provides in-depth insights into the team’s performance. His posts often include data and visual aids that help fans understand the nuances of the game.

    2. Meister: A long-time forum member, Meister is appreciated for his balanced and thoughtful commentary. He often mediates heated discussions and brings a level-headed perspective to debates.

    3. Diamond: Another respected poster, Diamond is known for his historical knowledge of the club. He frequently shares interesting anecdotes and facts about Watford FC’s past, enriching the community’s understanding of the club’s heritage.

    4. Hornetboy1: This user is recognized for their passionate and sometimes provocative opinions. Hornetboy1’s posts often spark lively debates and discussions, making the forum more dynamic and engaging.

    5. Burnsy: Burnsy is known for his humor and lighthearted posts. He often brings a fun and entertaining element to the forums, helping to keep the atmosphere positive even during tough times for the club.
    These contributors, along with many others, help make Watford FC forums a vibrant and engaging place for fans to connect and share their love for the club.
     
    reids and SkylaRose like this.
  13. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

  14. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    upload_2024-8-15_16-28-9.png
    :D

    Last sentence is spot on especially.
     
    Keighley likes this.
  15. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    "Sometimes" humorous??
     
  16. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    I cannot believe it did not pick up on your spelling ability! It more or less scans all threads it can find then prints a summary.
     
    Keighley likes this.
  17. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Ok I think this concentrated more on role here than my posts... oh well!

    upload_2024-8-15_16-33-51.png
     
  18. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    It missed out that I'm also fun at parties. This AI lark will never catch on.
     
    wimbornet, SkylaRose and Keighley like this.
  19. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords.
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  20. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    It didn't figure out your love for Air Fryers Moog... that's a no from me! ;)
     
  21. reids

    reids First Team

    I'm a little bit concerned about how AI will effect my role in football going forward. Barely 2 years ago I was on stage presenting a research project (which has won lots of acclaim) where I watched 11,000 corner goals, tracking about 6 data points and how to use that data to score more goals - I've recently been speaking to a company that has used AI to track 200 data points from over 600,000 corners to gain insights. Makes all the time I put in a waste!

    Google have recently used their DeepMindAI software to come up with suggestions from corners and presented it to the coaching staff at Liverpool with interesting results.

    "To assess TacticAI’s suggestions, GoogleDeepMind presented them to five football experts: three data scientists, one video analyst, and one coaching assistant, all of whom work at Liverpool FC. Not only did these experts struggle to distinguish’s TacticAI’s suggestions from real game play scenarios, they also favored the system’s strategies over existing tactics 90% of the time."
     
  22. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    I do not personally feel you have much to fear reids. A computer is not 100% correct and has it's faults. It can only produce what it's been told to produce and there is no way that a computer program (which is what AI is) can think of every single possible idea that a human can. Look at chess engines - they are good, well designed but you can always win or find an effective strategy. You make you're role your own - you put into what you feel is required. A computer cannot read a person's thoughts, and A.I is far, far away from doing anything that can change a person's perspective on what they do or feel.

    It may seem like your fighting against an unstoppable force, but as long as you present your findings at a high level and show your methods, you will win most battles in that regard. Software developers can be lazy, especially ones who code massive systems. A lot of the code is copy pasted from old legacy code and modified. If every single A.I had to produce it's methods of "how and why" it came to said conclusion it would have to declare why it's methods were better than a humans. It can't do that, and that is why you will still have a role because unlike software, you have a freedom of speech.
     
    reids likes this.
  23. reids

    reids First Team

    I do think the transition to AI in football will take a while as well, due to how many coaches will be sceptical of it and how to turn the data into actions on the pitch. So should hopefully be ok for a while!
     
  24. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Put A.I in the bin, It doesn't even know what a COG is.
    I wonder how A.I feels about the bots on the forum. A bit of jealousy, competition ??
     
    Keighley likes this.
  25. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Yes, I think you need to see AI as a tool for you rather than competition. Cut down on the time to sift through data and do the analytics. Spend your time on the added-value, refining the end product to suit the situation/customer.
     
    SkylaRose and reids like this.
  26. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    TBF, neither do you.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  27. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    As someone who spends much of life spouting random nonsense on the Internet, I'm sure my position is secure.
     
    reids likes this.
  28. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    Did you ask about HenryHooter?
     
  29. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    @SkylaRose

    "Moving away from Chat GPT, if we look at A.I from a much broader concept. should we worry about it taking over our jobs?"

    Respectfully, this is very limited thinking. If AI and robots can take over the majority of work that humans need to do to produce what we need, then surely that is amazingly great news! We can devote ourselves to art, culture, music, learning, exploring space etc.

    Also I would like to say that your idea that any programming language is 'close to the metal' is also a bit questionable. When you finish writing it, it goes through a compiler right? A flabby old (probably outdated) translator full of unknowns that converts it into machine code.

    They don't write program for irons or fridges in C. Proper machine code programming. Pure, precise control. No farking around. I should have gone into that line after I learned it off the OU. I was king of the machine coders. I loved it.
     
    Derbyhorn and SkylaRose like this.
  30. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Close to the metal is a term used for a language that is very low level, or in most cases, the least readable high level code. The only language above pure binary 1s and 0s is Assembly, which is sets of instructions that use some very complex data pooling to get workloads done. NES games were coded in pure Assembly (or a variable of the language that the NES hardware could understand). No human can read and write binary code, it's (almost) impossible to determine which sets of "off" and "on" will do what.

    You are correct however in that a compiler merely translates the human written language code into machine language that a computer can understand. When a program is compiled all binary is stored in an object file which is the only file the computer reads. A compiler uses a symbol checker to read through the code line by line in accordance to the language specifications (written into the compiler software) and parses it line by line. When you talk about higher level languages (such as C# and Java) they use a second level of abstraction above the compiler like the MSIL (Microsoft Intermediate Language) which act like a layer above the translated code of say a language written in C. This is translated into byte-code then translated into machine code.

    I do however fully commend you if you can write machine code flawlessly, I would of thought it would resemble something like this:

    upload_2024-8-15_18-51-27.png

    which is a level above pure binary 0010011100 etc.

    Fridges have micro processors (most, not all) that calculate the timers. Those are written in assembly (machine code) or an embedded version of C which is specially aimed at a certain platform/hardware specification.
     
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  31. I work for a digital agency and part of our objectives are to view how much we can use AI in our current roles. Are they asking us to investigate replacing ourselves I wonder?!

    Interestingly enough (or maybe not) moonpig have added AI to their card software. You can add a few keywords and ask it to compile a message. I tried it for a laugh and it wasn't terrible.
     
  32. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Yeah it was assembly I was using. I loved it for its precision.

    That compiler is a big problem. We've all seen auto-translated wfc transfer stories here, something like "Here come Watford of England in the fishing player our club".

    Well that's how beautifully written C code looks once its compiled (translated) into machine code. One of the reasons there are so many bugs in these systems.
     
    Derbyhorn and SkylaRose like this.
  33. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Interesting. Sounds like Moonpig have used the Chat GPT formula in a very simple format. Somebody still has to put the data into the A.I before it can produce a result. Therefore I would like to believe that any position where you are being asked "how an A.I can improve how we do our jobs" is a subtle nod to the research and development teams. One of the best ways to think about that is to decide what you can do without computerised aid. How you can (if possible) improve your output and cut down on work loads. The better a company can operate without the need for an A.I the better - it will save jobs and possibly create new ones in the process.
     
  34. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    I have respect for anyone who can code in C safely, using the memory allocation properly and not abusing function overloading. C is still one of the most used languages in the world due to it's speed. However, one thing (as you rightly pointed out) is that Assembly will not allow you to make a mistake. As it translates to instant binary without the need for a compiler any program written will instantly crash if it has the slightest fault.

    This is perfectly "legal" C code according to GNU:

    Code:
    typedef struct {
        char *str;
        int x, y, z;
    } Demo;
    What is str an array of? Is it an array of strings? Pointers to strings? Single characters? Who knows what the pointer of the char array is pointing to before it's used. One of the reasons we mainly use Ada at SpaceX is because of the total opposite of the above. You have to declare what everything is. Everything is a type - it has it's ranges, it has exception handling done right. A constraint error won't crash a vital program because you can loop through the data until the correct value is found.

    Assembly can do everything Ada and C can, but quicker and type safe.
     
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  35. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    This thread has taken a sinister turn.
     

Share This Page