The Premier League - 2021-2022

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by The Voice of Reason, Apr 26, 2021.

  1. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    My understanding is that our loans were secured against the stadium and future tv money/parachute payments and that's why they were agreed by the lenders. But it seems that once the TV money and parachute payments have run out the club will still be in debt leaving just the stadium. Yet more financial shenanigans from WFC while jeopordising the stadium and the clubs future. It seems the club had no intention of using the TV money/parachute payments to fully pay off these loans. When Scott started trying to cover up the seriousness of the financial dangers WFC faces it was really time to start worrying.
  2. SerbianHornet

    SerbianHornet Academy Graduate

    Also, after United game we did have 3 losses in a row but we played really well. We lost 4-2 to Leicester(due to WTE having one of the worst games I've ever seen from any player), played really well against Chelsea (lost 1-2 but deserved at least a point) and then lost to Manchester City 1-3 (considering our recent matches with them an incredible result and the second half performance was very good).
    Wheels fell off in the second half of our next game, vs Brentford.
    a19tgg likes this.
  3. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Yep, until the Brentford game I genuinely thought we’d stay up under Ranieri, based on the two big wins and playing well against the better sides. Then it all unravelled.
  4. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    If you think a theoretical debt free WFC would be worth more than £20m thats fine but the value to debt ratio would still be horrific. The only realistic way to clear the debt would be to go into administration but then we would probably lose the stadium. That's why the supporters committee instead of licking Scott's A and begging for access should be trying to get the stadium listed building status so it cant be turned into flats or sold to the NHS. You dont need to be a genius to work out that a club that makes 7 figures from ticket sales and has a 9 figure debt partly secured against its stadium is in big trouble in the medium term.
  5. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    You’re not making any sense, we’re either debt free or we aren’t? If we’re debt free where does the “value to debt ratio” (whatever that is) come in?

    There are only 5 teams in the championship this season with squads worth less than £20m:

    That’s just the playing staff alone, 19 teams have a squad worth more than £20m, the idea that Watford would be worth no more than that is a monumental stretch.
    Jumbolina and UEA_Hornet like this.
  6. RS2

    RS2 Squad Player

    Vydra injured? Almost nailed on to sign for us then.
  7. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Zero chance of it getting listed building status. It’s a collection of 3 1990s football stands - of which the GT Stand is maybe the only one with any unique features - and a more modern but basic other stand. Oh and the flats bolted on the back.

    If you mean it should be registered as an Asset of Community Value, I suspect it already is. But that’s a minor blocker to a seller, not something that could stop it outright.
  8. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    But the club ISNT debt free is it?You seem more interested in arguing the to$$ than engaging with the desperate financial situation the club is facing. Our debt is around £150m, I think the club is worth £10-20m debt free you think its higher, thats fine but even if the club is worth £50m debt free (which I highly doubt) the debt to value ratio would still be 3:1. With the debt 300% higher than the debt free value. Why would u rather split hairs and try to score points on this topic rather than acknowledge the dire financial position the club is in. The club is currently worthless due to its debt. I was comparing the size of the debt with the value of the club if it was debt free. Sorry if thats too theoretical for u.

    To put it more succintly: our club is worth nothing, its income is nosediving and the debt is around £150m partially secured against the stadium. If that dont scare u, u aint Watford!
  9. Of course it's not worth nothing. It is at least a solid championship club with great facilities and a nice ground inside the M25 that with an injection of investment would likely return to the PL. An investor looking for a UK football investment could do a lot worse.
  10. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    You’re the one who keeps talking about how much the club is worth debt free, not me.
  11. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    Surely any building can theoretically become a listed building based on its historical and cultural significance.

    How many buildings in Watford have more historical and cultural significance to the town?

    A friend from Luton once described Watford as a car park masquerading as a shopping centre. She wasnt far off. Watford has very little to offer as a town in terms if culture and history. Losing the football stadium would be a huge blow to the town. Every effort should be made to stop that happening and the Mayor and town council should be involved. The club is run by people who are not honest with the fans, who are driven by pure greed and who have jeopardised the stadium by using it as a loan guarantee. Im astounded WFC fans are so passive on this issue. We clearly cant trust the owners to guarantee the future of the club and stadium. If they were doung this to Leeds theyd need 24 hour protection but here at Watford no one seems to care that much.
  12. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    As I explained I was using it as a comparison.
  13. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    It's worth nothing as a football club because of the £150m debt. As I said before no one would buy a small town football team with a £150m debt. I have no idea what the stadium is worth but the only reason anyone would buy the club would be if they thought they could make money developing the stadium site so WFC could no longer play there. Frankly im astounded watford fans would rather nit pick than focus on the key issue which is our £150m debt partially secured against the stadium. Dont u have an opinion on that?????
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
  14. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Haaland confirmed for Man City - one benefit of us not being in the PL next season is not having to be on the receiving end of them spanking us 10 - 0 with him in the team.
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  15. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I am as worried as you are, but surely ignoring the debt the club would be worth at least players plus ground so £150m+?
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  16. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I just had a look and as far as I can see there are no nationally listed football stadia in England. The old East Stand at Highbury and the main stand/Cottage at Fulham are part exceptions. So that’s a dead end for sure.

    The Vic is not even locally listed by the council. Ranks lower than the Moon Under Water, the One Bell and the old Escort Tavern as local landmarks worthy of some protection…
  17. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    The squad value argument is exactly the same argument Peter Ridsale used about Leeds before they imploded and the same one used by Scott Duxbury in recent weeks. I think Portsmouth also had a pretty valuable squad before they imploded.

    Im talking about the value of the club as a going concern rather than it's value to an asset stripper. Those are 2 different things. If we are talking about the value of the club to an asset stripper then we are in big trouble but yes you are right the value of the club to someone who wants to sell the ground and all the decent players would be much higher than someone who wants to run a championship side as a going concern. That person would be much more interested debt levels (insane), income levels outside the PL (low) and operating costs (high). Its not a pretty picture.

    In the case of WFC only 2 of our players are worth over £10m. We had a good selling window 2 summers ago and all the money we made was swallowed up by operating costs. We are a club who's stadium is not secure, who's debt is many times the club's value, with high operating costs and a rapidly diminishing income stream outside the PL. Last relegation we had 1 year to get back to the prem. This time we have 2 or 3 before armageddon strikes. At some point that dependence on accessing PL cash will break us.

    The club is a financial basket case right now as are many other clubs outside the PL. Because its a football club people think its ok, if it was a department store it would be viewed as a complete disaster.

    As for our loans, that's megamillions of clean traceable money.....
  18. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    Isn't there a type of listing for buildings of historical/cultural value? Or any other type of protection? does the pitch count as geeen belt land? I guess Im clutching at straws here but is there any legal way to protect the ground from these sharks?? Fit and proper persons my ar$3. There should be legislation to protect football clubs from these type of people.
  19. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    That’s really not how it works at at all. The value of the club is based on the value of its assets. What you’re saying makes absolutely no sense otherwise how could you ever rule out if you were selling the club to an asset stripper, and if the club was being sold to someone for less than the value of its assets, wouldn’t it then make economic sense for the buyer to become an asset stripper even if they weren’t?
    Jumbolina likes this.
  20. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I agree we are a basket case. I merely disagree that “if” we were debt free we were only worth £20m. It’s not possible with the assets we have if you remove the liabilities.
  21. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    Are you suggesting the Pozzos paid the full value of the playing staff and the stadium when they bought the club? The sales of Marriappa and Buckley alone were about £5m.
  22. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    They had to cover the debt at the time as well?
  23. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    They spent about £20m clearing the debt the club had at the time, the club was subject to a winding up order at the time for non payment of tax.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  24. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    Fair enough, but in my opinion the ground is only worth its true value to someone who wants to sell it. Theres a huge difference in the club's value as a going concern and the value of selling its assets and leaving it without a stadium. Saying we are £150m in debt is ok cos our stadium is worth a lot of money is like saying its ok if i cant afford my mortgage cos I can sell my house to pay it off and then sleep under a bridge.
  25. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    So u r saying that the stadium and entire playing staff (minus Marriappa and Buckley) was worth about £15m in August 2012?
  26. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I agree. It’s probably not useful to talk of the club value without debt because that is not the reality. If Pozzo has run up 100%+ debt against the assets that is a complete disaster (which I think he has) and puts the future of our club at risk. I agree with you that at the current time the club is valueless. We don’t need to make worse hypothetical scenarios because the reality is already bad enough!
  27. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    No, the club was about to be wound up and go into administration so it was cheap on that basis.
  28. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    The main priority should be for the supporters to pressure the owners to use the parachute and Sarr money to pay off the debt secured against the stadium this summer.

    This is by far the most important pressing issue. The problem is Pozzbury dont care about the club. As long as the debt is serviceable (which it is in the short term), they are happy to continue paying the interest and continuing with their nefarious financial shenanigans unabated...
    iamofwfc likes this.
  29. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    But now the club is worth the market value of the playing squad, plus the full value of the stadium and the transfer payments we are owed plus parachute payments we are due minus £150m and money we owe to other clubs for transfers? Well, thats what Scott Duxbury will tell the clapping seals in the supporters committee anyway! Its ok guys we can always sell the stadium and groundshare with Brentford or QPR!! Move along now, nothing to see here. Did u support the Bassini takeover too?
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
  30. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Given current market prices he seems a steal at 51m.
  31. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    He (and his agent and father) demanded a release clause when he moved to Dortmund - so the fee to Dortmund was the release clause of €75m (just over £64m).

    For sure at first glance that seems a bargain, though there are an additional approx £50million in fees which City are paying to a combination of his father and agent (one of the reasons for the release clause was that not only would Haaland not get stuck at Dortmund, but that also more of the cash for his transfer would go to his father and agent, rather than Dortmund).

    £114mil, plus £375k per week, is still fine though for someone who could definitely be the best forward in the world for many years to come.
  32. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Boring end to the season with Liverpool after tonight’s result running well away from the rest but still likely to finish 2nd. Same teams in the top six again - the prospect of West Ham getting into the Europa League again at the expense of a woeful Man Utd isn’t particularly exciting either.

    At least Burnley and Everton’s recent form has breathed life into the relegation battle…
  33. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    The Premier league is none of our business, mate.
    Bwood_Horn, Steve Leo Beleck and RS2 like this.
  34. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Yes agree.

    Don’t think City will drop points .

    Might stop Pep moaning that everyone hates them .

    Man U don’t deserve any European football .
  35. toffeeblue9

    toffeeblue9 First Year Pro

    Dunno. Wolves and West Ham away aren't particularly easy fixtures. I could easily see City dropping points in at least one of those
    wfc4ever likes this.

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