Sir Keir Starmer’s Barmy Army

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by Moose, Sep 29, 2021.

  1. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Poor performance from Starmer at PMQs today imho.

    Left himself open to attack by criticising Sunak for supporting local councils on housing (although Sunak is motivated by fear of backbenchers not because he really cares) when Starmer, just a few days ago, was spouting about the virtues of decentralisation.

    He also scored an ongoal, imo, with his personal name calling. "Blancmange PM" might have worked against Johnson but Sunak could just successfully play the "higher moral ground" and decry the personal attacks.

    Starmer needs to up his game against Sunak. He had it too easy against Johnson and Truss.
     
  2. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I think Sunak is a trickier customer in many ways than the others. He seems to particularly enjoy PMQs and brazenly ignores questions put to him.

    I think Starmer did ok, but needs to up his game. He successfully deflated Sunak’s final boosterism by asking a health question last, so Sunak had to be serious.

    But overall he needs new attack lines. The chaos to come will spare his advisors the job of looking too hard for them.
     
    sydney_horn likes this.
  3. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Yes, some may say it was cynical, but that final question prevented the last Sunak answer full of sound bites, made popular by Johnson, was hobbled before it could start.
     
  4. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Much better performance from Starmer today at PMQs imho.

    Sunak looked pathetic and weak.

    I note Starmer finished on a serious question again. Sunak was forced to agree again and give his support to Ukraine. It totally cuts off Sunak's ability to finish on a sound bite filled speech which I'm sure he has prepared for him.
     
    Moose likes this.
  5. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    The lad must be 7 stone dripping wet. Needs a good night out on the beers followed by a large donna & chips once a week imho.
     
  6. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Thoughts on Starmer's Brexit tubthumping?

    I'm frankly sickened. We are being given no choice in elections over an issue which has caused huge damage.

    Starmer has failed to step up.
     
  7. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    I answered this in the proper thread.

    What I did find slightly perturbing in Starmer's speech was:

    All of the signifiant steps of these technologies arose from state-funded 'pure' research in Universities (in those regions). The industrial exploitation of these technologies arose through the commercial funding by nascent industries - so you need robust state funding to ensure UK plc is there at the forefront of the next generation of tech.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  8. Starting to dislike him almost as much as the Tories.

    Okay, not that much, but if on my hate-o-meter Tories are 100, Starmer currently about 30.

    [​IMG]
     
    sydney_horn likes this.
  9. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I get the political argument. If he says Brexit is cr4p and we should look to rejoining the SM (at the very least) he may lose the Brexit "red wall".

    But that is flawed for two reasons imho.

    First, I strongly suspect he believes Brexit isn't working (and never will) and he is being dishonest with the electorate by saying anything different. We are told with a nod and a wink that he will soften his tone once in office i.e. once he's fooled the voters. That is no better than the Tories.

    Secondly, there is a huge and consistent majority of people that recognise that Brexit is going badly and was a mistake. If he doesn't pivot soon to recognise that and return to his previous "remainer" position then he will lose far more than he will gain.

    Personally I think it is time to be honest with the electorate. They can see what is happening. There will always be a core "anti EU" group but I honestly think that will shrink back to pre- Brexit levels, or even smaller, over the next few months.

    Bottom line for me is that the British public crave honesty in politics after years of Tory lies. Nobody really believes Starmer is a born again Leaver. He is being dishonest and everyone can see it.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  10. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Centrists complaining about centrists saying centrist things.
     
  11. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    You can support a pro-Brexit Labour stance that realigns positively with Europe or you can have the Tories in again offering more unicorns and conflict.

    There is absolutely no way that Labour can win this time on a rejoin platform. That’s not to say it will be ever so, but if Labour goes rejoin it will lose in the Red Wall again and will gain nothing in the shires.
     
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  12. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I don’t think that signals a reduction in funding for r and d. It would be daft for the reasons you give.

    It’s just fluff for the private sector to make it feel wuvved and accept that Labour is no threat to it. A private sector that is, as you point out, dependent on the state sector for r and d to apply and exploit.
     
  13. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    It is a little reminiscent of the lead up to Blair's first victory. In the eyes of many 'wavering conservative voters' he'd 'cleansed' the Labour party of all the dastardly quasi-commies, banged on about ensuring 'fiscal stability and rigour' so that 'Labour could be trusted with the economy' and won a landslide. And didn't renege on those aspects of the manifesto. Where he did fail was not to realise the size of his majority, and the general positivity of the electorate towards how his government had performed, actually allowed him to go further and deliver some more radical policies in his second term.

    Starmer has 'de-Corbynised' Labour, will no longer openly attack Brexit, and has been handed the chance to realistically declare Labour the 'safer pair of hands' on the economy. From that position he should win; the size of his majority should then determine whether he could then work towards a re-alignment with the EU. It will obviously fall well short of 'rejoin', but he would have ample scope to renegotiate on such things as access to SM & CU. Hopefully he (or his successor) will be braver than Blair was.
     
  14. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Why 'obviously'?
     
  15. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Because even in 6-7 years timeI think ‘full rejoin’ will still be too divisive.
     
  16. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Not convinced; and you said that Starmer should be brave…
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  17. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I think it really depends on what happens in those 6-7 years.

    I honestly think that if it was not for Covid and the war in Ukraine the full impact of Brexit would be obvious.

    As it is, the government and the Brexit supporting hardcore will point in every direction but Brexit for our economic problems. Without Covid and the war it would be far harder for them to explain our issues away.

    If people see our economy continue to underperform against other major economies over the next few years then Brexit may be seen as the primary cause - with a very obvious solution.
     
  18. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    But not stupid.

    You need to look at the electoral map to understand where Labour can make gains to win the election. That’s largely in Leave areas.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  19. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    We’re not talking about the election, we are talking about what he might do some time after winning a decent majority (if he does).
     
  20. In 6 or 7 years time there will have been another shift by dint of births and deaths of around 2m to the remain/rejoin camp. As there has already been such a shift since the referendum, along with leave voters changing their minds, the population in 6 years (at which point Polish living standards are predicted to overtake ours) will be about 22m remain Vs 11m stay out (if turnout similar).
     
  21. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    This fails to take into account the bruising nature of a campaign to rejoin.
     
    Since63 likes this.
  22. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I remember the days when politics was about believing in something and persuading the public to support you. It was called leading the nation.

    Now it's all about focus groups and saying the "right thing", whether it fits with your actual beliefs or not, to get elected.

    Not sure if I blame the politicians or the public (or both) but it's a pretty sad state of affairs and is probably why we are getting the quality of government that we deserve.
     
    wfcmoog, Arakel, Lloyd and 2 others like this.
  23. I think it would have the opposite effect. People who had voted leave would be disenchanted and, despite desperate clinging to the idea that it had been a good idea, would know deep down from experience that it had been a disaster, and in a spirit of "what's the point?", would not bother to vote.
     
  24. V Crabro

    V Crabro Reservist

    So we never change anything - because the change might be painful?

    I am fed up with politicians, journos, brexiteers, etc. telling us that "we can't go through all that again". Maybe we should just forget referendums and make the next GE an "in/out" contest. Of course that would need the Labour party to be a proper opposition party and offer voters an alternative to long term economic decline.......
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  25. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    It was widely spoken about in the 1920's by very senior civil servants that the future business of Governing GB and the Empire would be little more than effectively managing decline...
     
  26. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    No, because, as it stands, we’d lose again and I don’t think I can stand that.
     
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  27. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    As dispiriting as it may be, that's probably as brave as he could risk being without shooting himself in the foot.
     
  28. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Some good points here, but I tend towards Moose's view that the last decades' disinformation and scaremongering about 'Labour' and 'Socialism' and 'the EU' has penetrated so deeply into the psyche of many of the electorate that it will take longer to make a winnable case for 'rejoin'. I think an interim period of SM & CU access will be needed to demonstrate the benefits before that stage is reached.
    And we should not ignore the attitude of the EU members themselves; maybe they would take the view that 'Perfidious Albion' should serve some sort of 'apprenticeship' to show that we are serious & to be believed.
     
  29. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    I entirely agree with the last point. I am much less sure about the preceding one. People have pretty short memories and political winds can change pretty swiftly. That is especially true given the age profile of Remain/Leave.
     
    sydney_horn likes this.
  30. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    The age profile is overplayed. I’ve been waiting all my adult life for the Tories and their nationalist politics to die off, yet they get new recruits every year. That’s because the ruling class that drives their politics is very good at encouraging and provoking nationalist sentiment.

    Hardly anyone has changed their minds on the Leave side, certainly no opinion formers or politicians. That’s a formidable alliance of view to provoke Leave voters (who may even have buyer’s regret) to rally around their once in a generation choice. Anyone thinking rejoin would simply waltz up and win hasn’t noticed that the EU as a concept is still weak in the UK, even among Remainers. We only talk about what we have lost.

    I can tell you with certainty that the Tories would love Brexit to be threatened. It would be an absolute gift for them and give them a shout of retaining the Red Wall and therefore power.

    Starmer is absolutely right not to stir this hornets nest right now. It would be electoral suicide. We have to stop losing before we can start winning.
     
    wfcmoog, Since63 and UEA_Hornet like this.
  31. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    I think the age profile of a progression to broadly conservative political viewpoints in general is an entirely different matter from the binary question of Leave/Remain, especially since as time goes by those who are voting will be those who have only ever known life in the EEC/EU (barring the last few years, of course).

    But, to reiterate, I'm not disagreeing with your last point. I just think there is a danger that that argument could be used to indefinitely postpone what is best for this country.
     
  32. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    The timing of the referendum was ideal for leave: it was before the large numbers of new voters (kids) who had grown up and gone to school with their EU peers could vote and, if my memory is correct, this was a generational 'bump' in numbers very much against our falling birthrate.
     
  33. V Crabro

    V Crabro Reservist

    In the privacy of the polling booth I think there are probably a small, but significant, number of "leavers" would now vote "rejoin", but I doubt there are many "remainers" who would now vote "leave".
     
  34. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Sir Keir's 'big idea' about handing more power to local authorities is a major turn off. Judging by the councillors I have met, local government is full of power-mad jobsworths, assorted nit-wits and little Hitlers. The idea that these people will be given more influence on the way we run our lives is truly terrifying. Vote Buckethead
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  35. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    There is a big difference between the questions ‘remain’ and ‘rejoin’.

    I always wondered how an issue, something like the 15th most important to voters in 2010, became the most important issue of all in 2015. The answer is the power of a repetitive and venal press to shape a narrative. It worked very well, with a powerful grass roots campaign emerging out of seemingly nowhere, with oodles of funding to get the message across.

    Who is going to do that for rejoin? Who is going to puncture the apathy of the majority of voters on this issue? To make them think of no other question more important than ‘rejoin?’ Unless that can be done, it is likely the nationalist press will have its way again. A disaster.

    I agree that it would be wrong to never ask the question again, but at the moment I very much doubt the benefits of joining could be persuasive. People knew that the EU was better for trade when we were in it. Enough didn’t feel that they personally benefited and we are a long way off convincing enough of them. Better to concentrate on helping them now.
     

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