Shamima Begum

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Maninblack, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Apparently she's got a Bangladeshi passport, so she's not stateless.

    I'd have more sympathy had she been kidnapped, however she got on a plane with her 2 friends by her own volition. Also, isn't it convenient that she ony wants to come back because she's in a refugee camp?

    CaveManHornet and hornmeister like this.
  2. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I prefer this one [​IMG]
  3. Look, she's a stupid girl, from what I've heard from her not very bright. But at 15 (or younger, we don't know when 'they' started getting into her head), you can be quite easily persuaded to do some very stupid things as my other example demonstrates.
  4. cyaninternetdog

    cyaninternetdog Forum Hippie

    Shamima Begum?

  5. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I expect ultimately this decision will be overturned but Javid obviously has one eye on the Tory party leadership race to come. Plus has probably been looking for a test case to take this issue back to Parliament to try to widen the powers available to the Home Secretary to get rid of undesirables.
  6. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It is easy to think that he is playing to a gallery.

    I am not sure that I agree with him in her case, but what might be the correct thing to do in her case, would not necessarily be the right thing in anothers case. And therein lies the big problem, I think.

    If he brings her back, then it will open the floodgates. One difficult decision by the security services and the courts and a protracted and costly de-radicalisation program, without any guarantee of success, could quickly grow into 10's, or potentially 100's of similarly difficult protracted and costly decisions.

    I think he has taken the decision to be harsh with her, in the hope that it stems a potential flood. Maybe not right, but a pragmatic decision, and I don't think the negatives will outweigh the positives for the government, even if they eventually lose a court judgement.

    At least he is being decisive, something our government has lacked recently.
  7. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Saj is a bit of a Gawd Elp Us.

  8. hornmeister

    hornmeister Club Legend

    If it's OK by international law then it's the right decision in my opinion.

    We must follow the law however, not just make a convenient decision because it suits us. Morally that would be wrong and legally open up all sorts of time and expense in a challenge and potential compensation.
  9. hornmeister

    hornmeister Club Legend

  10. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    She could have turned round and tried to return as soon as she got there, not wait 4 years get married have two children which unfortunately died, then days before she was about to give birth arrange an interview with one of our biggest newspapers pleading with the government to be brought back! In the interview she decided not to condemn the death of many innocent people in the Manchester bombing, saying it was retaliation.

    The lack of her parents pleading for her return on the BBC/SKY/ITN news shows she is not an ordinary British Citizen,
    If anything bring the baby back and have him adopted, the mother can stay there!
  11. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Looking into it, there seems to be a 'fog of war' going on.

    Apparently she doesn't have a Bangladeshi passport.

    Some people are saying she was born here, some are saying she was born in Bangladesh and her parents moved here when she was 3 - so effectively she has dual nationality/citizenship and on that basis it was revoked. Apparently under Bangladeshi law, because her mother was Bangladeshi national, then she assumes that nationality.

    It's a bit messy.
    hornmeister likes this.
  12. Yes, that's right, she could have tried to escape an arranged marriage within a murderous death cult in a war zone at the age of 15.
  13. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    I’m so torn on this one. She was 15 when she went. A baby. Not capable of making rational decisions and obviously brainwashed. But if she’s beyond repair and even if there’s a remote chance that she comes back with extremist views then how can we accept her back
  14. hornmeister

    hornmeister Club Legend

    Agreed. I think it's a bad move from Javid whatever happens it's open to legal challenge. He should have just said no comment on individual cases.
    Let her back in if she can make it to a position where we have to then prosecute when she returns.

    Whatever happens now it's going to cost the taxpayer. The paper got a nice story and a payday for the journalist, but at the expense of time effort and likely millions from us poor mugs, now that the govt. have to sort it out.
    Sometimes I think we're better off just not reporting anything to do with terrorism. Pull the publicity and just let our security services deal with it of course audited according to law. It gives terrorists ideas and propaganda opportunities. The only positive is increasing awareness I suppose.
    rochdale away and hornetgags like this.
  15. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    My issue is that she doesn't seem repentant, she didn't have a problem with beheading videos, says she enjoyed herself and things started going sour, which could be argued was around the same time as ISIS were on the verge of defeat.

    I don't know, but her inteview comes across as 'coached' - demanding sympathy from the British people. Either that or she is far more clever than I thought which makes me think she is a sociopath.
  16. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Any decision about citizenship is 'open to legal challenge', because it can be appealed to a tribunal. There's nothing special in that sense about this case. And, I presume, the government's legal advice at least suggests they have a leg to stand on if that happens. That's not a guarantee they'll prevail in the end - in fact the Home Office has a woeful track record of high-profile defeats in the courts - but it has to be worth debating and doing in the open.
    hornmeister likes this.
  17. hornmeister

    hornmeister Club Legend

    I suppose it's a good test case. A lower risk individual involved so if it goes the wrong way it's not as bad as it could have been. So in actual fact a shrewd move from Javid.
  18. CaveManHornet

    CaveManHornet Reservist

    I hope the Syrian government hang her for treason, the silly cow. These bárstards are the modern day Nazi and they should be dealt with accordingly
  19. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    I'm in the same boat. It's very easy to see both sides.

    My biggest struggle is over the issue of stripping citizenship. That means that, as a country, we're willing to use a technical loophole (she's "eligible" for Bangladeshi nationality, she doesn't actually possess it) to keep someone we deem to be undesirable out of the country. When you consider that she was 100% born, bred and raised in the UK, pushing this problem off onto Bangladesh seems almost sociopathic.

    Like it or not, she's a product of the UK and I don't think pushing that off onto Bangladesh (a country she's apparently never spent so much as a day in) is particularly responsible of us. If she's dangerous enough that we feel the need to exclude her then surely she can be convicted and imprisoned.

    Let us imagine she was instead a British national who was eligible for a French passport. If we stripped her nationality and forced France to take her it would be an international **** storm of epic proportions. So why is it OK for us to try and force her on Bangladesh? It strikes me as a complete abdication of responsibility on our part.
  20. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Heard on the news that she's trying for Dutch nationality through her husband.
  21. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    That's a long shot, to put it mildly.
    hornetgags likes this.
  22. So Bangladesh have said no. There goes the rationale. Stupid playing to the gallery from Javid.
  23. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Disgusting of Bangladesh to make this young girl stateless. I hope the UN sanctions them.
    wfcmoog and miked2006 like this.
  24. I don't for a minute condone what the stupid girl has done but this smacks of the Home Secretary playing to the crowd. It's bullying.

    A fair trial, and if guilty imprisonment with rehabilitation is the core principle of our criminal justice system, but not with this case it appears. Hang, draw and quarter by letter from 1,000 miles away seems to be the principle applied here. Whatever the girl has done this is not the right way. We can't be selective with our principles. A serial killer can't have a fair trial yet deny this silly girl the same.
  25. Cude>2<

    Cude>2< First Team Captain

    If guilty? She went to join a terrorist group. What are we basing guilt on?
  26. Presumption of innocence until found guilty by a court of law. We all have that right. We can't apply rights selectively otherwise we are no better than 3rd world tin pot dictatorship justice.
  27. Cude>2<

    Cude>2< First Team Captain

    But innocent of what? The serial killer example you gave - Did the person kill people or not...

    She joined a known terrorist group. There isn't any denial of it, or remorse. I usually support the justice system, but in this scenario, I support the stance taken. It's a different scenario to usual crimes in my book.
  28. How does this case compare?

    One gets a fair trial by jury, 6 years, released in 3. The other gets trial by media.
  29. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Enough of the 3rd level tinpot stuff.
  30. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    To me, that case simply represents a time (early 2015 she was detained) when through arrogance or stupidity we as a nation presumed IS wouldn't really be able to touch us here at home. Sure, they were blowing each other up in Syria and Iraq and other distant places, but we thought our authorities had a handle on them.

    Since then we've had London Bridge, the MEN Arena, Westminster Bridge, Parsons Green. There's arguably been worse in the near continent. Enveloping these zealots in some sort of loving, rehabilitative embrace has proven to be completely ineffective. To carry on trying it is to not learn any lessons at all.

    As for Begum's trial by media - she's the one speaking to journalists and feeding the machine. She can stop whenever she wants. I'm 100% sure though that Javid will have reached his decision based on domestic and foreign intelligence and insight into the poloce investigation, rather than her media appearances alone.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  31. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

    She also said if she goes down that avenue she can stay with his family and wait for him while he is in prison.
  32. If no one let's let in are we allowed to just launch her in to space?
  33. So was this a 3 horse race between ourselves, Bangladesh and the Dutch ? Whoever is the last to ban her has to keep her for fear of making her stateless ? A sort of pass the parcel in reverse.
  34. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    There's already a lot of empty space where the brain is supposed to go. Just look at the pictures, she really isn't at the races at all. Cousins marrying cousins.
  35. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

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