Ranieri Out

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Relegation Certs, Oct 4, 2021.

  1. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Uncle Claude is really growing on me. In not so many different words - he has come out and said we are not good enough at the back. Something none of our previous coaches have expressed. Let's hope Gino gets the message sooner rather than later.
  2. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    He’s not a yes man. Which means he won’t last long unfortunately.
  3. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    At 70 years old and having done absolutely everything in the game, despite being Gino’s mate he has absolutely no reason or anything to gain from sugar coating anything, quite the opposite in fact.
    SkylaRose likes this.
  4. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    As much as I don't want to - I have to agree 100% with that statement. What Ranieri does give me is hope he can kick some @rses and try and sort us out. However, I thought the same about Pearson and
    after we stuffed Muff 3-0 at their place, but we know how that season ended.
  5. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    It was reassuring to hear him say he's going to sit the players down this morning and show them what they were doing wrong. I know that happens at every club in the country but I have full confidence that Ranieri actually knows what he's talking about. Also if there is a player that can't do what he wants then he won't play.
  6. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Imagine being Cathcart and Masina and having to watch yourselves back.
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Yes, he's pretty much said the two he's currently using are crap, but he wants to look at the others which is fair enough. None of us know quite how good Nkoulou will be and I think most of us believe Sierralta will be decent enough in the Premier League.

    I think Cathcart and Kabs' time is up. Not even really good enough as backup anymore, IMO. Kabs is constantly injured anyway. I think WTE is ok as your backup option. Even if Nkoulou makes the grade, we still need one more Premier League level CB. I suspect we'll be looking at the loan market in January for one.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
    SkylaRose likes this.
  8. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    You'd think routinely being humiliated in front of your teammates would make you up your performances, but I just don't think they're capable of it.
    a19tgg likes this.
  9. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Whilst I agree, our defenders are rotten and far past being able to learn new tricks. Ngakia and Sierralta I would expect to grow immensely under Ranieri - but Masina, WTE, Kabasele, Cathcart are all either old or have inherent faults in their game. Ranieri would have to almost completely change their whole game in a matter of weeks.

    It’s folly to expect Ranieri to make silk from that sows ear. There’s no escaping the fact that a number of new defenders are needed.

    My worry is we buy more dross and mistake quantity for quality. I fear the owner will address the depth and ignore the quality.
    wfcmoog and SkylaRose like this.
  10. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Sounds like Ranieri has plans for January but do the Pozzos apart from changing the manager ?
  11. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Ranieri will have links to loads of ace Italian defenders who will be crying out to join us in January.

    We just need to make sure the utter dogshyt we currently have at the back can keep us in touching distance of 17th place until then. That's the problem.
    lutonh8a and SkylaRose like this.
  12. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    Yeah I agree. I think we'll see a token centre back signing in January to cover for WTE going, most probably a loanee from Udinese who will make a couple of appearances before disappearing in the summer.

    I'm hoping Sierralta will learn a lot from Ranieri and that Nkoulou is better than what we have otherwise we're absolutely ****ed. Unless Kabasele returns a completely different player!
  13. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Somehow getting Malang Sarr on loan would cover a multitude of sins. Can play LB or CB.

    Highly suspect we retain interest in Kim Min-Jae. Only just joined Fenerbahce in the summer but has a €9m release clause that’s activated for PL clubs next summer and their president has already said he expects him to go.

    But we wouldn’t get him this season.
    RS2 likes this.
  14. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    Doubt we would get Sarr but would be an incredible signing. Would love Kim Min-Jae.

    We can dream I suppose.
  15. Sadly he's not Kim Min.
    Cthulhu and lutonh8a like this.
  16. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Can we not trade our sulky Sarr for their Sarr?
  17. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    3 defeats in 4 now. He can't have long left.
    wfc4ever likes this.
  18. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Probably be 7 in 8 so the games after will be vital before January.
  19. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Overall though since Liverpool, the performances (defensive) have been much better. Yes, we still play poorly in most games but yesterday was a big improvement over Southampton in general
    attitude and work. I think we are moving in the right direction, I just hope he gets the time afforded to him to make that impact. Players' seem to be on board.
    wfc4ever likes this.
  20. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I know you're joking (probably) but it will almost certainly be 7 defeats in 8. That would finish off every coach in the past, but I think Ranieri could be a different kettle of fish. I think he will be given the entire season (crazy as that sounds) as I think they've probably mentally written-off this season already. Outside chance of staying up sure, but it's a punters bet. All being equal, we are down. The squad is not good enough, simple as, and I think they will judge Ranieri on how well the team performs within its limitations, and how good is his reading of the game.

    Ranieri is a coach you have to respect and you have to trust. He's probably the first appointment I really feel that about in all honesty. His friendship with the Pozzo's will also buy him a lot more time than most as well.
    SkylaRose and K9 Hornet like this.
  21. Yes it's more likely to be the case that he thinks at 70 he doesn't need the week in week out misery and so throws the towel in long before he's pushed.
    wfc4ever and K9 Hornet like this.
  22. K9 Hornet

    K9 Hornet Border Collie Dog

    I agree. I think they would stick with him because if he can't get a tune out of this lot then who else could? He has all the experience and a proven track record at this level which is a big departure from the last two coaches. I hope they listen to him and back him in January - I suspect he is more likely to resign than be sacked if he isn't given any help in balancing the squad and having a fighting chance of staying up
    Robert Peel and SkylaRose like this.
  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Mentally he's on it and is enthusiastic. He loves being involved, so unless his health sadly fails, I don't see him walking out this season. The question would be would he want to manage in the Championship? There maybe a parting of the ways at that point, but I don't see him going this season.....and that's a pretty bold statement.
  24. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I think he’ll be here all season regardless of what happens.

    But - if he did resign, I think that would perhaps be the biggest wake-up call to Gino imaginable. A mate that his family have known for 30yrs choosing to walk away from them because the thing is such a mess.
    K9 Hornet likes this.
  25. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    I think the January window might break Ranieri. If Gino doesn't get him what he needs then I think Claudio will leave for a job at a proper club in Italy without adding a relegation to his CV.
  26. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Sort of hope it happens, from the point of view of it being for the greater good and hopefully a huge wake up call to Gino.

    Obviously the preference would be he keeps us up, but if not then I think that would send a real message to Gino and it’s on the assumption that realistically we’re likely to go down.

    He’s not go everything right but I think he’s got most things right so far, he’s mostly been undone by the players at his disposal. Assuming he doesn’t start making some weird decision that cause Gino/Giaretta to question him (a bit like ivic at the end) then if he resigns it will be squarely at their door.
    K9 Hornet and wfcmoog like this.
  27. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Age not withstanding, I really feel like we could build an actual team to be proud of under Ranieri if he’s given the freedom and time to work at it.

    I think he’s ‘suffering the fools’ we have right now because they are his only options. I really hope to god that his relationship with the Pozzo’s means he is given the remit to ‘yay or nay’ incoming transfers and get rid of those he see’s no worth in. I have my doubts about that being the case - but he doesn’t strike me as someone who will be happy with a load of dross dropped at his feet and told to lump it. And I doubt he would have taken the role if so.

    January and next summer will be a huge indication of where we are headed I think.
  28. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I’m intrigued by your very definite negative assessment of the Watford squad. (This is not a criticism by the way.) The general feeling last season was that we had close to, if not actually, the best squad in the Championship and that any fool could get them promoted. During the summer we presumably accept that the club attempted to improve the squad to cope with the PL, but now the current squad is “simply not good enough”. It’s hard to argue that it’s not better than last year, so are we now saying that the gap between the Championship and the PL is so huge that a promoted club has to pretty well change it’s entire playing staff to hope to survive? This is surely financially impossible, so is it equally impossible for any promoted team to avoid immediate relegation?
    SkylaRose likes this.
  29. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Has the squad improved though? Maybe in certain areas, but not enough has been done. The defence, whilst excellent in the Championship, is not up to the Premier League level. I think that dramatically demonstrates the gulf between the leagues in a nutshell. Our defence has not been invested in, and it undermines everything. We can't keep a clean sheet, and it's by sheer good fortune we've not been hammered more times, other than Liverpool. On the balance of play Leeds, Newcastle, Wolves, Brighton, Southampton and Arsenal should have inflicted far heavier defeats on us then they did. We've only been thrashed once, but could and probably should have been thrashed 6 more times. This is what I look at when I make my claim. It's a case of narrow defeats papering over the obvious issues.

    We will improve under Ranieri, I have no doubt in that, but I don't think results will necessarily follow. Whereas we've been lucky to avoid many heavy defeats, our pattern of play that will probably change to deserving narrow defeats......but still defeats nonetheless, although we'll be slightly more competitive.

    Our forward line on their day are decent. Dennis, Sarr & King can be a handful, but they've all got to be on top of their game, and there's not a great deal to back them up. Pedro and Cucho, although I like them both, probably are not quite Premier league just yet.

    Midfield has options, but it's a bit clunky and there is very little guile. So, this is why I don't think we have much chance of staying up. However, of course would love to be proved wrong on this. A lot will depend on our January activity, but I really don't expect too much to happen.
    SkylaRose and wfcmoog like this.
  30. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Look at our old rear guard.

    Holebas - Prodl - Cathcart - Kiko - Masina - Mapps

    Three of those six are still here and still first team players. Kiko can be really good when he links up with Sarr and he was by far our PotS last year. Cathcart is very error prone and slow and Masina has more bad days than good. Then we have Troost, TGFC, Rose, Ngakia and Pollock. Rose is overweight, TGFC is never fit, Troost blows hot and cold Ngakia is a trier and we'll never see Pollock at PL level. Admittedly, Kiko is not a natural defender but he does play there. IF we do stay up this season, we really, really need to invest in this area. We cannot go another season with such a paper thin back line, especially if we want to be what Duxbury admitted is our aim.
  31. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I think attack is better than in the Champ.

    Midfield is much of muchness (Sissoko a step up, but Kucka, Louza, Tufan all inconsistent at best, useless at worst)

    Defence is the same

    GK is the same, except Foster is older.

    I'd say we're probably just about better than the team that finished second in the champ, but we've signed a lot of duds who haven't improved our first 11.

    The gulf between top of Champ and bottom of Prem IS huge. It means that a cheap and cheerful summer of scraped together freebies and loans was always unlikely to be the strengthening needed to bridge that gulf.

    I'd say Dennis, King and Sissoko have been properly successful signings so far. Jury is out on most others (I'd have included Rose until the past 3 appearances where he's looked worse and worse each time).
    Supertommymooney and SkylaRose like this.
  32. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Kiko is crap in the PL. Fact.
    wfcmoog, NathWFC, RS2 and 1 other person like this.
  33. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    It’s not so much the difference between the bottom of the Prem and the top of the championship, that’s always been huge, 20th place gets £100m, 21st place gets £5m (if not in receipt of parachute payments). That’s a big gap that will always be tough to bridge.

    The difference is between the top of the championship and rest of it, that gap has grown massively and hence it over inflated the quality of our squad in many fans minds. For example dropping down to the championship didn’t suddenly make Kiko a competent PL defender but bizarrely many seemed to think it had. The reality was outside about 2/3 teams he was coming up against woeful players week in week out.

    When we came up first time our marquee signing was also Capoue, who instantly improved or midfield. This time round it was Louza. We also added Behrami who was an obvious step up in quality. Troy was still in his prime and in Iggy for half a season at least we got the benefit of a 30 goal a season striker.

    We don’t have the benefit of any of that now, and if we hadn’t of first time around we would’ve more than likely been relegated then too.
    NathWFC and SkylaRose like this.
  34. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    I don't think there's any 'now saying' about it, to be honest - unless you have some other specific USP, that's been the way for quite some time - we essentially did it last time we came up, as a19 has outlined a bit.

    Basically, unless you are a team with a very defined identity on and off the pitch who play a very specific style under a manager wedded to it and players bought specifically to work in it, that's exactly what teams need to do to stand a chance. So in that category we would put Leeds and Wilder's Sheffield United. But, even then, both either are or had to deal with fairly significant 'second-season syndrome', and it still cost Utd their place in the league in the end. The only other way is to have a team full of players who are so good they're better than the other too good for the league-rs - that's basically Wolves when Mendes got involved.
  35. RS2

    RS2 Reservist

    He played 90 minutes though so well done to Kiko.

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