Non-payment/partial Payment Of Wages

Discussion in 'Yellow Pages' started by Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, Oct 6, 2022.

  1. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Grateful for any advice on this one.

    I started with a new private home care company in August. Only a small outfit, but a 'limited' company.

    Worst one I've ever worked for. Really, really amateur. I've had no contract, no policies and procedures and not even a payslip for the first month of pay. The boss mistress is a nasty bully. I won't bore you with a wealth of incidents. Sufficient to say that I soon handed in my notice and my last day was today.

    Tomorrow was supposed to be payday. I've worked like a trojan over the past month. 06:45 first visit and 22:00 finish with hardly a break. I've done well over 50 hours every week of the month.

    Got a text today from the mistress as follows:

    "Hi huni, Reason for contact is we have had an issue with suspicious activity on our bank account and are unable to pay full wages tomorrow, bank has reassured me that this will be sorted and everyone will be paid remainder of wages by Wednesday, sorry about this but it is out of our hands xxx"

    I asked how much they are going to pay and it is only £300 apparently. My wages due were £2324.44.

    I'm on the limit of my overdraft already. I don't know what I'm going to do about bills. I'd borrowed from a relative to pay my rent on the 1st and had promised faithfully to pay them back tomorrow.

    I'm in desperation.

    Has anyone got any suggestions how to deal with this? Is it likely that a bank would not allow a small company to pay its employees because of 'suspicious activity'? It seems really dodgy to me.

    I have confirmed with another carer that it's true it's everyone, not just me. I've also emailed the union, but of course we're not unionised there.

    Fack and double fack small business entrepreneurs. Really.
  2. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Thought this was going to be about Watford for a moment!!
  3. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    The excuse that 'it's out of our hands' sounds like bull's hit. Suspicious activity might mean someone has helped themselves to the money in the company's account but they should be able to access funds to pay wages
  4. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    Sure this is what Gino did to the players

    call your bank and ask for a short term increase on your overdraft and explain the reason why. They may be quite accommodating
  5. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    This may be true, but they shouldn't have to be. Your employer should make it their business, quite literally, to pay you on time. If they don't they're not fit to have people in their employ.
    miked2006, Lloyd, Moose and 2 others like this.
  6. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Seems a high wage for Cuba
    Arakel likes this.
  7. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Unfortunately this will probably sink any chance you have of forcing the issue. If there are no contracts, policies or procedures there is no laid out schedule for when wages should be paid. As a result you won't be able to claim they've breached a specific obligation because one was never laid out and agreed to. With the payment date being so close to your anticipated date of pay and you having confirmed that every other employee is in the same boat, you are probably SOL.

    Compunding this, it's entirely possible the account got frozen by the bank; that absolutely can and does happen (for example, unusual incoming payments can be a trigger, due to suspicion of money laundering) and the business will be rendered unable to access assets until the hold is removed.

    If they miss the Wednesday date that might well change your position, but I suspect that won't happen and they're telling the truth. Since immediately retaining a legal advisor might start costing you cash, I don't think it'd make sense to do that until the Wednesday deadline has come. If they're telling the truth you'd just be wasting money. If they're not telling the truth and you have some kind of case there's no way you'd force a judgement of any kind before Wednesday anyway.

    @Halfwayline has made a great suggestion: calling your bank and explaining the situation and asking for a temporary overdraft. That's likely your best move in the short term if you don't have a family member or similar who can bankroll you until then.

    Speaking as a small business owner we've had issues with payroll once due to a monumental **** up by the company we use for payroll. Unfortunately there was nothing we could do to fix the automated payments, but we were able to write hand-written personal cheques on that occasion for those who didn't want to wait until the following day for payroll to run correctly. Of course, since cheques need time to clear it would hardly fix your immediate cash flow issue.
  8. Hornpete

    Hornpete Squad Player

    Walk in and remove 2k of equipment until Wednesday. If you get paid, return it.
  9. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Their account has probably been flagged for breaching Cuban sanctions.
  10. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Hopefully, she is telling the truth and you get paid when she says. However, if you are not and no good reason is forthcoming it will be time to get heavy.

    Firstly, get some legal advice (and maybe there is a forum member who can offer that or Citizen Advice).
    Then write outlining your complaint, timescale for resolution and consequences, for example ET or when you will refer to a debt collection agency.

    You can also threaten to inform the council and the CQC. They won’t do anything, but she may not understand that.
  11. StuBoy

    StuBoy Forum Cad and Bounder

    I read that line Clive and immediately thought, 'you're a bit ****ed', sorry old chap. Hope it does resolve itself favourably for you though.
  12. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I would have thought that any previous wage slips, with deductions and any correspondence about the employment would amount to a de facto contract to pay Clive for his services and for any statutory entitlements.

    But forum legal eagles may know the situation for sure.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  13. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Not even a letter confirming your appointment?
  14. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I've got an email that says:-

    "We are thrilled that you will be joining our team. That documentation will be fine. We will give you a few forms which will need completing. I look forward to having you join our team. Many Thanks"

    However unfortunately there's nothing else contract wise.

    No previous wage slips. I only had one previous pay day, which was 9th September and they didn't give me a payslip for it. I asked many times and it was always "Oh it's locked away somewhere", "Oh you'll have to ask the other manager who's not here" etc etc etc..
  15. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    They sound well dodgy.

    However they paid you before, that’s evidence. Did you get a rota?
  16. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Agreed. Banks need a good reason to freeze a company's account but once they've done it seems unlikely that they'd be able to promise to unfreeze it 'by Wednesday'. I think it's more likely that the company has cash flow problems so it's good that Clive is moving on. Of course, that doesn't help his immediate situation.
    If by Wednesday you haven't got what's owed to you Clive, why not start a crowdfunding page - I'm sure all your fans on WFCforums would chip in a few quid to help get you out of the sh1t. This is a serious suggestion, by the way
    Robert Peel and Moose like this.
  17. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Yes I have kept all my printed rotas.

    They are indeed as dodgy as anything.

    Remember too, that this is how they treat their staff and they're put in charge of caring for vulnerable elderly and disabled people in this country.

    Shameful really.

    I've been in touch with the union and maybe their legal people will be able to do something.
    miked2006 and wfcmoog like this.
  18. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I'm very touched by this. Hopefully it won't come to that. I wouldn't like to have to beg. I've worked so hard this month too.

    Week 1 - 53h 15m
    Week 2 - 52h 30m
    Week 3 - 55h 45m
    Week 4 - 59h 30m

    That's all 'contact time' by the way and excludes the travelling between visits.

    Mind you, on the positive side, it has meant I've missed seeing quite a few watford games....
    miked2006, wfcmoog and Lloyd like this.
  19. bracknellhornet

    bracknellhornet Reservist

    You sound like you work your backside off, I think you would successfully claim this pay legally if you had too. I'm no expert but since IR35 so you don't need a contract to be regarded as an employee, there are other ways such as the company telling you, where to be, or when to be there, or providing you tools/equipment to do your job. If you are then deemed an employee, any employee rights should apply, and so will employers' liabilities (your salary/PAYE/NIC contributions)
    wfcmoog and Clive_ofthe_Kremlin like this.
  20. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I find it hard to believe that the whole operation is a scam because there are many other lines of business where it would take much less effort to defraud people. It sounds much more like gross incompetence with a lack of business systems properly in place, leading to the possible cash flow problem someone suggested.
    The very best of luck in getting it sorted.
  21. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    Write a letter, recorded delivery, pay in 14 days or small claims (costs very little and theyll have to pay costs if you win)
  22. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Correct, and it's worth a go threatening it, though as a limited company they could just go into liquidation to avoid ever paying anything.
  23. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I don't think you can do small claims over wages though.
  24. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Make sure you keep all communication, texts, emails, any evidence of agreement. Presume you must have received something to advise you who to visit and when etc ?
    You can check basic info about the company here eg last accounts (unless brand new company), directors, if they have gone into administration/applied for liquidation etc. If you want to note here, or PM me the company name I can have a quick look for you to see if there's anything of interest.
  25. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Keyboard Warrior Staff Member

    A friend has recently. Almost an identical situation to yours, dodgy care home, no contract, bad practice, woman owner is a bully. You dont work in Norfolk do you?
    Bubble likes this.
  26. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Nooooo, I've only got 10 fingers, so wouldn't fit in.

    It seems this sort of thing is quite widespread in the care "industry" though. These little companies and their eccentric owners really need expulsion from being in charge of looking after people.

    My new job is in a care home rather than as a home carer. They tell me that they've just sold out to a new owner. A man with lots of money, but no experience at all in care. He's decided to buy a care home because he's heard there's lots of money to be made in that 'business'. Not a great omen...
  27. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Just replied to your message.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  28. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    I hope the “owner” is telling the truth. Check with your bank to ask if they can contact the companies bank to confirm that a problem exists.

    What evidence have you got from the company that prove you have done the work, eg work schedules instructions? Are you sure you were an employee or being paid as a self employed sub contractor? If you had no payslip what deductions for NI and income tax were made from your gross pay?

    Was the company working for private individuals or contracted to a charity/local authority etc? Approach the clients you worked for to see what arrangements they had with this company. Explain you would like confirmation you did the work you undertook, as you have failed to get paid. If you need to to you may need to explain that you have not been paid by the company you undertook the work for

    Have you checked the company with a Google search yo see if it really is a limited company? Companies house will hold information including the registered directors.

    if you have bern scammed you would probably have to seek legal advice.
  29. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    So do I comrade. So do I.

    I have printed visit rotas from them showing names, addresses and times of visits to be completed.

    99% sure as an employee. There's never been any suggestion of self employment. The job was advertised on indeed as an employee's job.

    Don't know. I went up there yesterday to hand in my uniform and office key. The mistress was absent, as is usually the case, but the deputy manager and supervisor were there. I had a right go at them. Asked what compensation there was going to be for bank charges, lost interest etc. (Silence). They said they had only been paid £300 each also. I asked for my payslip and was again told it was "locked away". Same as last month. I asked them to send it to me by post first class and urgent. I doubt they will. I'll have to keep pursuing this.

    They get the contracts for the care visits from the local authority. I've seen some of the figures on the computer. The LA pays them £25.32 for an hour long visit and they pay the carer £10.40 per hour.

    Not really an option. The majority of the clients are very frail elderly people, many with dementia. Many of them don't know what day it is, let alone anything about care arrangements. Some of them persistently ask you who you are and what you're doing in their house at every visit.

    @The undeniable truth has very kindly done this for me. They do exist and it's not a scam. Seem like a company on the point of folding though.
  30. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    On the subject of them not knowing who you are from visit to visit, it's often the case that they don't recognise you even though you've seen them and had long chats with them loads of times.

    Sometimes they decide on a 'name' for you and if they remember it then you have to go along with it. I had one client who insisted I was called Richard. Told them loads of times my real name, but they kept going back to Richard, so you just accept it. After a while, when you arrive there, you just go in and knock on their door and say "hello! It's me, Richard!"

    As you often see the same people 2 or 3 times in the same day (eg get them up, washed and breakfasted in the morning, lunch at lunchtime and then change them into their PJs and put them to bed again at night) you quite often have to have the conversation when challenged about who you are along the lines of "I was here a few hours ago and made you your lunch, remember?"

    You shouldn't laugh because dementia is a horrible disease, but I also had to carry the company's main mobile out of hours and also answer that whilst trying to do the visits.

    I had a call from the alarm company recently. One old dear had pressed her alarm 5 minutes after I had left and told them she thought she had had an intruder in her house!

    He'd been dressed from head to foot in PPE, had made her a cup of tea and a sandwich, had put her eyedrops in for her, given her her meds, had emptied her commode and then said he'd be "back later"!

    I told them I thought I might know who the intruder may have been.....
    iamofwfc likes this.
  31. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    The thing is, scam is a loose term. From my experience in the property industry, very few scams start out as deliberate intent to defraud people.

    What tends to happen is they find it easier to make more money by cutting corners and covering those cut corners with a few small lies.

    The lies get bigger and the corners get cut completely, until the whole thing collapses and the investors/customers/employees lose everything and then find out the truth through picking through the wreckage.
  32. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    If the clients you visit are being paid for by a local authority - i would approach that council if the money is not received by Wednesday morning in your account. No payslips -the company must send you a P45 under IR requirements. That will list your pay, NI and tax.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  33. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    Sorry to learn of the difficulties chap.
    If they don't pay up what you're owed within a couple of days then it's off to the CAB but in the mean time have a trawl of the money saving expert forums as well.

    I would document everything. Keep a record of your additional expenses including any interest charges. It may be useful if you need to get legal but I'd give them a couple of days to get it sorted.
    The resource to use if you want to make a claim sub £5K

    But it sounds like you may need to get some professional advice. I used these chaps to advise on a compromise agreement I had a few years ago they appear to offer a free telephone consultation so if you get all your ducks in order it may be worth getting in touch with them or someone similar.
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  34. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Just checked my account and wages have been paid! Phew! What a relief!

    Thanks to everyone for their advice and support in a worrying time especially @The undeniable truth
    wfcwarehouse, Bubble, Moose and 8 others like this.
  35. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    Good to hear.

    One of my responsibilities in a previous job was to send of the salary payment instructions to the bank. On more than one occasion I had to nogotiate with staff to see if they could hold off for a week as cashflow was tight. More often than not my own salary was paid a week or two late to help grease the wheels.

    It amazed me how people on salaries 10x mine and still living with their parents were desperate for cash at the end of the month until I realised most of it probably went up their nose or their 4 holidays a year. I've always tried to heve at least a couple of months salary in savings although I acknowledge it's more difficult to do in these trying times. Luckilly I'm on the position now where I'm debt free and able to work part time to cover the bills although that may change if the costs keep rising.

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