Nathaniel Chalobah & Harry Winks: England call ups

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Maninblack, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    But axolotls don't change - so are you stuck with it?
  2. J.B

    J.B First Team

    I'm not the one who originally compared Alli to Mbappe. I was responding to another poster who did. And Alli plays nothing like Pogba or Bernardo Silva. At their best they control games. He's more of a Lampard/Gerrard-style player who is given a certain amount of freedom to roam around and drift in and out of games so that he is able to pop up with a moment of magic. If a team is set up in a way that accommodates for this like Spurs are then he is a very good, dangerous player when he's on form. However, if they are set up in a more disciplined way where more consistency and contribution is expected of players, like most sides in Europe are, then he is a liability and out of his depth.

    And I was referring more to the amount of retrospective bans and bookings and sending offs he gets in important games which ends up costing his side. Who knows how Spurs' season could have gone in 15/16 had he not lost his head, punched a West Brom player and got banned in the run-in? Or how they would have done in the Europa League last season had he not made a potentially career-ending challenge on an opposition player. As well as that he's extremely lucky to not be missing the first couple of games in the World Cup next year for petulantly putting his middle finger up at a referee in his last England game. It's ridiculous to suggest he doesn't ave a discipline problem and that it isn't having an impact on the teams he plays for.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  3. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Quite. We can argue about Ali’s talent and potential but surely the fact he is petulant and likes to dive is beyond doubt. Hopefully he will grow up but we’ll see.
    PowerJugs and Ferventhorn like this.
  4. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Not sure that's true. As they get older they become more objective, more reflective and more capable of adapting to the different axolotl situations they find themselves in. Very different from when they were young tearaways.
    KelsoOrn likes this.
  5. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Biggest issue with the England team is that whichever players are picked, they invariably play with no confidence, no indication that they have ever met their team mates before let alone played with them, and no clue what tactics they are supposed to be following. Turning up for England seems to be like a tedious obligation for them. It's difficult to get excited for them when they all seem so disinterested and passionless.
  6. Ray Knight

    Ray Knight First Year Pro

    They can become clever...ever heard of Aristotle Axolotl.
  7. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I absolutely agree with your first sentence, but I'm not sure the players are not interested in playing for England or find it tedious. I'm sure Chalobah, for instance would have been thrilled to be called up.
    I also don't believe all the players and all the managers have been useless/not up to it over the past 20 years or more. So I can only assume their lack of confidence is down to the weight of history. They know so many people are hoping they succeed so they are terrified of making a mistake which leads to a very conservative approach and when things turn against them they crumble.
    At the same time we, the fans, now expect them to fail at every tournament and that expectation becomes self-fulfilling as the cycle continues. I believe we have had players who are good enough to succeed at international level but it will take a collection of very strong-minded young men to break out of this cycle.
    PowerJugs likes this.
  8. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Yes. But sadly petulance and diving don’t make him a bad footballer in this day and age. They may make him of questionable character but they are quite acceptable to the modern game, just not the fans and or media. Many would state that Luis Suarez is petulant and dives - undoubtedly a world class player though. Now I’m not saying Alli is yet - just that petulance and diving won’t stop him getting there.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
    PowerJugs and Legends like this.
  9. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Exactly. I watched a fair few of the younger England national sides over the summer in their respective tournaments - that they were extremely successful in - and the one thing that captured me was that the squad unity on the pitch, when celebrating etc and generally just looking supportive of one another and being invested in the team and what they were doing. This is something that has been lacking from
    England squads and has slowly eroded year by year since France ‘98.
  10. Meh!

    Meh! Pre-Dictator

    Simple solution. Drop the entire first team and play a mixture of the younger teams for the next campaign.

    May miss out on the next tournament but the experience and continuity could lead us well into the next 10-15 years.
    dennyboy likes this.
  11. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Delle is not a Lampard/Gerrard style player.

    They both played deeper, defending first and attacked from deeper, scoring most of their goals from further out.

    Delle is player who plays in tight spaces in and around the box from a starting position that is a lot higher up the pitch than either Gerrard or Lampard.
    Happy bunny likes this.
  12. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    I disagree, I don't think the England squad are disinterested or passionless, I just don't think they're as good as people think. It's almost like England fans have bigger team syndrome like the fans of Newcastle, Liverpool, Leeds etc.

    Slowly the narrative from the media and fans alike is changing, and realigning their expectations.
  13. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Different situations = 1 standing on mud at the bottom of a lake staring at muddy water, 2 water gets slightly more muddy, 3 water gets slightly less muddy.
    I like the idea of a tearaway axolotl - in fact I seem to remember one at that 0-4 result being celebrated on another thread - it ran onto the pitch and gobbled up a small deranged L*ton fan.
  14. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    You mean Aristotle Axolotl of Lake Xochimilco?
  15. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Yes but can't remember, was he the one in Guns'n'roses or Beverley Hills Cop ?
  16. J.B

    J.B First Team

    Gerrard and Lampard didn't play deep during their peak years. Admittedly, Lampard and you could argue 2004-2007 Gerrard played slightly deeper than Alli, but that's why I said he is more that sort of player as opposed to saying that he's a carbon copy of the two.
  17. ITKJim

    ITKJim Reservist

    Chalobah is genuinely better than Jordan Henderson. It doesn't matter that he is captain of Liverpool, Chalobah is just better in pretty much every department.
    Supertommymooney likes this.
  18. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    If it doesn't matter, why mention it?

    The guy is just **** full stop. Plays for a historically big club and somehow gets chosen for TV ads. Nothing else.
  19. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    .......tonight being a classic example. Key priority, don't get injured and put your £100k a week contract at risk.
    sydney_horn likes this.
  20. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Gerrard was your archetypal box to box player and that's by his own admission. Lampard was also box to box with less emphasis on tackling than Gerrard but an eye for goal .

    In their era 442 was the main formation where they both played mostly in one of the 2 central midfield positions.

    In the current era we play 4231 , 433 or 343. In all those positions Gerrard and Lampard would generally have played in the 2 central midfield positions whereas Alli would play in one of the attacking 3 spots.

    To compare Alli to either Gerrard or Lampard doesn't make any sense I'm afraid.
  21. MarlonsCellMate

    MarlonsCellMate Reservist

    Jack wheelchair will get 3 starts for arsenal between now and the end of the season. 1 will be against palace were he'll get 2 assists. He'll go to the world cup.

    Undeserving players getting called up and having to support england alongside some of the mongiest fans this country has are the reasons I dont care as much as I used to.
  22. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    I don’t care for the football, I go it listen to the band. Why don’t the 1881 start one?
  23. Because most football fans are tone deaf. As is demonstrated by the England 'band' and the unbelievably tuneless drones that you will hear around you on any awayday.
  24. Harrybassetthater

    Harrybassetthater Academy Graduate

    England were so boring to watch last night. Jordan Henderson FFS. Play Harry Winks and Nathan Chalobah when fit. I'd also add Loftus-Cheek to that mix. Play some good hungry youngsters and do away with TWO holding midfield players.
  25. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"


  26. J.B

    J.B First Team

    At his best Gerrard played as a second striker behind Torres. He didn't like playing there, but that was his best season for Liverpool and they nearly won the league that year. Benitez would often either play Gerrard out wide or in that role because he didn't trust Gerrard to play as one of a midfield two as he didn't have the tactical discipline to play there, a problem that Alli would have if Spurs played that formation. Think back to those Liverpool teams, it was always Alonso and Sissoko/Mascherano with Gerrard playing elsewhere.

    Similarly, at his peak Lampard didn't play in a midfield two so I don't know where you're going with that one either. Under Mourinho. Chelsea famously played a 4-3-3, not a 4-4-2, and usually had Essien/Tiago and Makelele playing behind Lampard and allowing him the freedom to bomb on. Even after Mourinho left this continued and Lampard rarely, if ever, played as one of a midfield two.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  27. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Anyone who has watched more than a handful of football matches in the past 20 years will tell you that Gerrard and Lampard were primarily CMs whereas Dele Ali is an attacking midfielder . They are not the same type of player .

    Go to and will tell you exactly what proportion of games each player has played in each position.

    It lists Gerrard and Lampard as CMs and Ali as a CAM.

    You carry on believing what you like .
  28. J.B

    J.B First Team

    I don't need to go on to know that Chelsea didn't primarily play with two CMs when Lampard was a key player for them or to know that Gerrard largely played either out wide on the right or behind Torres under Benitez at Liverpool, with Alonso and Mascherano being the two centre mids. Are you actually trying to deny this?

    They are not exactly the same type of player to Alli, but then I never argued that they were. I said they were a similar type of player to him, more so than Pogba or Bernardo Silva, but are not carbon copies as very few players are and the game has evolved over the last 5-10 years.
  29. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    deli Ally and harrie Cane r the bestist playas in da world and will win englund the world cup

    evn tho they aint even wun nuffink wiv spurs lol
  30. NorthHarrowHornet

    NorthHarrowHornet Academy Graduate

    My take on the England situation. If England played Burnley tomorrow, they would lose. Make of that what you will
  31. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    Corrected for you.
  32. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    Hey Reids!
  33. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

  34. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

  35. reids

    reids Squad Player

    wfcmoog likes this.

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