1. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    I support Watford. They are not Barcelona. By your logic I know nothing about football and am therefore sad.
     
    Ghost of Barry Endean likes this.
  2. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    Manics fans like to queue early....
     

  3. You actually are the most pretentious poster on here, which is nice because I always thought it was me.
     
    Mollyboo likes this.
  4. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    No, you recognise that Watford are sh!t as we all do and acknowledge that there is better fare on offer in Spain.

    We might well decide to spend the limited time we allocate to football following the fortunes of a substandard team, but we don't pretend that our team compares favourably with theirs. Watford are a guilty pleasure, the Pachabel's Canon of football.
     
  5. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    We are not ****. Neither is my taste in music.
     
  6. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    Awesome pretentious trolling. Watford a guilty pleasure. Hilarious.
     
  7. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    We are sh1t.

    Not as sh1t as Fleetwood or Bolton or Luton, but still sh1t.

    We are nowhere close to Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man City, Liverpool, PSG, Brazil, Germany - compared to all those teams we are sh1t.
     
  8. And compared to Fleetwood, Bolton or Luton we are Real Madrid, Barcelona etc ! We are only sh!t if you compare us to the dwindling number of teams in Europe who are better than us !
     
    tonycotonstache likes this.
  9. To be "better" why does it need to be "taken seriously by those working within the genre" ? "Better" is 100% subjective. I hate the songs I used as an example but I'm not precious to say what I like is better or not, it's just what I personally prefer. Millions bought agadoo !!
     
  10. But what about Fleetwood Mac and Michael Bolton? How do the compare to Monserrat Caballe and Freddie Mercury?
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  11. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I don’t think I am precious either. But are you seriously suggesting that - say - the Birdie Song is as good a piece of work as A Whiter Shade of Pale, or Metal Guru, or Anarchy in the UK, or even The Winner Takes It All?

    I don’t think “betterness” is solely a function of being taken seriously by fellow artists, but I do think that that characteristic is one factor which we might use in appraising quality.

    The logical conclusion of your position is that all criticism/evaluation/celebration of any form of art is wrong because all art is subjective. We might as well exhibit a picture done by my niece Tamsyn, aged 6, as something by Rembrandt, or Monet, or Picasso, in the National Gallery.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
  12. Its pretty simple really.
    If Tracey from Bolton prefers Agadoo to Chopin, she thinks it's better. I don't think you or I can tell her that she's wrong and that Chopin is better. She prefers what she prefers. You can say one is more complex, has more variety, is more difficult to play, but that doesn't make it "better".
    If millions actually preferred Tamsyn's work of art to Monet then who is to say they are wrong and Monet is better? Is Monet better than Picasso ? Art, music etc is all down to personal preference, there is no league table to measure them.

    I prefer the 4 songs you mentioned to the birdie song but I wouldn't tell someone who preferred the birdie song that they were foolish to do so and that they should prefer Metal Guru instead because its better
     
  13. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    But some art is better than others surely. I can’t draw to save my life. It would be ridiculous to say that I am an artist on a par with Titian.

    Also, I’m not sure I agree with your Tracey from Bolton example. She may prefer Agadoo to Chopin, but to prefer something doesn’t mean you think it is better. You like it more, yes - but that doesn’t mean that you necessarily think it is of higher quality.

    I go back to my previous point. The logical conclusion of your position is that galleries, literary prizes, concert seasons: none of those should exist because it is all subjective. I quite agree that you shouldn’t force people to like what they don’t like but I think that to fail to value skill - or genius - is not a position that any society should be taking.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
    Mollyboo likes this.
  14. Of course it isn't ! The opposite in fact. If millions liked your art, no matter how poor you think it might be, wouldn't you deserve an exhibition in a gallery ? Or would you think, irrespective of your popularity, that others were more deserving as they were "better" despite being less popular ? How do you think Picasso started out ? Not sure we are going to agree with each other so maybe we just park this and agree to disagree ...?
    Is metal guru better than albatross ? It's not possible to say.
     
  15. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    If something sells millions, it is good whether you like it or not IMO.

    Sam Smith, Ed Sheeran, Adele whoever it may be are "good" it's undeniable.
     
  16. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    I would say the troller dismissing anything they don't like and adding in what could be seen as class war 'simple music for your day in the factory' nonsense shows the snobbery that often is found in supposed high end art.
    Can we not play any classical music at Vicarage Road pre match as we are too simple to appreciate it or be a fan of it?
    Art is art. Enjoy it. Interpret it. Let others do the same or ignore it just the same.
    Sneering at others though. Not for me.
     
    oxhey67 likes this.
  17. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    Spot on. One man's **** is another man's treasure.

    Del Trotter said that. Clever man.
     
  18. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I think so, yes. I have sympathy with your basic point in so far as I don’t think that (a) you should tell people what they should like; and (b) (this is perhaps the GOBE-Mollyboo debate), I don’t think you can determine that a particular genre, such as classical music, is “better” than another, such as rock and pop. However, I do think it is possible to identify artistic work which is more skilled, imaginative, original etc than other artistic work, and that that work can, and should, be celebrated as being of high quality. But certainly that work should not be forced down people’s throats in an intellectually snobbish way.
     
  19. Agreed esp if you mean "high quality" as being technically difficult/skilled. However I don't think you can say the output from being more skilled, imaginative, original, technical when you add it all together necessarily means the output is "better" if "better" means more enjoyable to experience, as that will always come down to the view of the listening population ....and millions loved agadoo :(
     
  20. So Sam Smith is "good" and I am wrong to think he's utter **** ? He's very popular, and millions think his output is "good" but I happen to think that doesn't mean my own view is wrong.
     
  21. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Oh no, enjoyment is quite a different characteristic. I enjoy Take That more than I enjoy Bob Dylan. But I think Dylan is more skilled, and influential.
     
  22. Yes but would you say that makes his music "better" :) ?
     
  23. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    I think I would, yes. You, I assume, would not.

    He can’t sing though. Which is why Leonard Cohen is better still. :D
     
  24. Budweiser? KFC? Daily Mail? Sometimes product is calculated to appeal to the lowest common denominator. That said, you can't deny the craft in finding that sweet spot for the acts you mention.
     
    Mollyboo likes this.
  25. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    Sky Arts tonight for your high brow pleasure. Those high end creative celebrators of all things artistic and lyrically at the top of the creative tree.

    yawnmongers live.
     
  26. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    The jokes on all of us cold play is swear filtered on here to yawnmongers
     
  27. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    Hahaha, couldn't have put it better, you atrocious snob.
     
  28. Klein Lust

    Klein Lust Academy Graduate

    <~ my avatar is a Gothic ****. I'm a 44 year old Goth. Joy Division, Bauhaus, Nine Inch Nails, Rammstein etc. I listen to BBC 6music, love the randomness of songs from most of the dj's. Some new music is ok, this new one by Gwenno is kinda poppy-ish but memorable.
     
  29. The Cure ? Greatest ever band....when they weren't doing their poppy "Friday im in love " b0ll0x.

    ps thank christ you changed your underwear avatar. That and and the "different coloured lady meadow dyes" footer (Borehamwood horn?) were the main reason to have to hide the screen at work
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
  30. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Joy Dvision are goth? **** off.
     
  31. Klein Lust

    Klein Lust Academy Graduate

    Keighley, it is debateable I agree, but how can a song like Day of the Lords notbe classed as goth? It's a matter of opinion
     
  32. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    But then Love Will Tear Us Apart or She's Lost Control are clearly not...

    "Post punk", imo.
     
  33. Klein Lust

    Klein Lust Academy Graduate

    Yeah, I agree, post punk for sure, they came before the wave of gothic music I guess
     
  34. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    And they didn't wear silly hats and douse themselves with flour like Fields of the Nephilim. :D

    You're on safer ground with Bauhaus. I'd suggest they mark a transition between post-punk/new wave and Goth.
     
  35. Klein Lust

    Klein Lust Academy Graduate

    In a college band I was in, our singer was a massive Nephlim fan, dressed like the singer McCoy and everything, long leather jacket and big black boots etc.
     
    oxhey67 and Keighley like this.

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