The only reason this man has had relative success so far is because of the incredible talent he has at his disposal, NOT because of his talent as he has very little of that as a manager. He has all the players that won their age group world cups in recent years and those who reached the semi final stages too. However, he has not got a clue how to manage them, because if he had we would have won those competitions that have given him his undeserved kudos instead of just leading England to glorious defeats. His record looks good despite of his management skills not because of them, as the players are the ones who deserve the praise for doing so well in those recent tournaments NOT Southgate who has not got a clue as a manager IMO.
Don't agree, and still think Iceland in 2016 was an easier tie than Germany in 2021. Denmark was no cakewalk either. This is not to say that Southgate is a great manager (he clearly isn't) but imo we should focus on his tactical inadequacies rather than saying he has had it easy and still failed. That's just how tournaments work - you can only beat what is in front of you.
My point was that it was the easiest run to the final ever, not that every match was easier than any other single match in another tournament. For Euro 16, we went out in the last 16 to Iceland, but they faced France, who then faced 2016 Germany and Portugal. If we got to the final that year, it would have been far more impressive.
Well, yes - and we got to the final. So unlike Hodgson, he didn't fail, except against Italy. And even then we only lost on penalties. Where I would point the finger is in respect of the tactical inadequacies that showed in the second half vs Italy, and similarly against Croatia in 2018.
And the two matches against Belgium. And the match vs Colombia, which required penalties. Have we beaten a team in the top 10 of the rankings in a major tournament under Southgate?
My point is simply that I don’t believe his achievement in getting to a final and a semi-final should be discredited simply because they were “easy draws”. He has still done more than any other England manager bar one. Bobby Robson had an easy draw in 1990, I don’t recall him being criticised. GT beat the equivalent of a League One team to get us to Wembley in 1984. I don’t recall him being criticised. And nor should they have been, because in a tournament you can only beat the teams you are drawn against. Where I agree is that he has come up short when it really matters, and that is because he is tactically weak. I’m not trying to defend him, but I think the “easy draw” argument is a weak one.
I agree with this, but people forget that Robson was criticised in 1990. It is only because of the glorious failure against Germany in the semis after dodgy knockout wins v Belgium and Cameroon that England’s World Cup and indeed the whole tournament are remembered fondly, but criticism of the manager was huge in the group games. In fact it was reported at the time that it was the players who lobbied for a change of system for the last game against Egypt to get them through.
Yes, I recall that but that criticism subsided as England advanced, and I don’t remember people saying post-tournament that he was lucky in who we drew in the knockout stages (though we were). Of course he stepped down after the WC so perhaps that forestalled arguments to that effect. He then got a knighthood…
Robson was a genuinely nice guy who the public wanted to succeed. Southgate doesn't have that luxury. Both men beat the teams they were expected to beat, had a bit of luck, and lost to the stronger teams they met. In fact beating a higher ranked team in a tournament has been a very rare occurence over the last 30-40 years. The Netherlands at the Euros, Germany at the WC (before then losing to Romania (?)!), Argentina ....can't think of any others.
Why? I think he is actually pretty popular with the general public, it's some football fans who dislike him.
They weren't in the top 10 when we played them in the Euros. Their best rank in 2021 was 11th and their worst rank, which they were probably closest to after scraping through the group stages and being 'relegated' in the Nations League, was 16th in the world. It was the worst German side since WWII. Again, despite having one of the top four or five squads in the world (and some of the best players), if we play anyone in the top 10, I think we’ll lose due to Southgate’s deficiencies. The question is when we play the better teams. If it's the final or semi-final, then it's more exciting. If it's the first knock out stages, it’ll be a depressing tournament.
Have we or do we big up our players. The same can be said during the "Golden Generation" where we achieved less than nothing. Defensively we look awful. Stones, Maguire etc are not good enough. The full backs are good going forward but not good at actual defending. Midfield, Rice looks good but Henderson is getting on and I'm not sold on Phillips. Bellingham is still very young. Forwards is probably where we are very good with the likes of Kane, Saka, Sterling, Foden etc. As a team I would not say we are a top 10 team whoever is in charge. I will say I don't think Southgate is the right choice either though
We do, but I think this lot have only been 'bigged up' because they have had some success in tournaments. I don't think many predicted we would get to the semis of the WC in 2018. With Sven's lot they were bigged up before failing in those tournaments.
It was a bad loss to Hungary and a bad game from us. We havent been brilliant recently either. I might be alone in this view and I am usually very negative about England's chances but I still think we need to look at the bigger picture before we completely bin southgate. It does seem an over reaction to me. overall his tenure has been a relatively very successful period. Perhaps these losses will serve to temper some of the usual hyperbole about our chances at the world cup and we might be better off for it. The players havent all suddenly become really bad.
I think you're right that like with the previous generation, a lot of our best players play in similar positions, and there are some key question marks in the side (especially GK and CB). Ignoring friendlies, Maguire plays excellently in international tournaments if he has Walker's pace to bail him out. Chilwell needs to stay fit, as he is excellent both defensively and offensively, or Shaw needs to regain his 2020-21 form. Pickford is good when he's pumped up, like in the final 10 games of Everton's season, although I'd prefer a world class GK. Ramsdale was excellent at times last season too, so I guess first choice will be decided through pre-Christmas form. Stones is fine, but nothing more. I was hoping Tomori might be the answer given his form last season, so it would be good to see him in a competitive match during the actual season. I'd also prefer a deep lying playmaker next to Rice. I'd argue if fit, Chilwell, Walker (or TAA, or James), Rice, Foden, Mount, Sterling, Kane and Saka would make it into nearly every international team in the world, whilst Sancho, Grealish and Bellingham have the talent if their form picks up and they are more consistent. The main difference between this and previous 'golden generation', is the mentality. There aren't really any cliques or rivalries, with City and Liverpool players hugging after crunch matches, and most are down to earth players who understand that the collective whole is more important. Southgate has to get some credit for emphasising and building on this ethos, as the morale of the players and their psychology is always top notch. I don't think we should be annoyed at our NL performances, as everyone is quite rightly in second gear. Southgate needed to chop and change too, so disjointed performances were inevitable. My main concern is Southgate's ability to pick the right tactics and starting 11 against the best teams, which is a huge part of his job. The lack of sensible experimentation was also a bit concerning, as we're the comments that we lost against Hungary because we were too attacking. The winner of international competitions is increasingly the team with the best manager, rather than the best squad/ starting 11, and our manager is tactically average at best. My outside bet is the Germany win the World Cup this year, predominantly because Flick is one of the best managers in the world.
He has not got a clue. Nice guy and nice person for the FA to have about. Brazil and Argentina will be right up there. Disciplined, hard working squads with a will to win. France too although their might be internal ructions that could derail them, Spain particularly if they can find a scoring striker, Portugal, Belgium, Germany and Holland as the dark horses. England ought to be there but won't have a chance with Southgate at the helm. NL is a perfect opportunity to experiment but it was the same tepid, rigid, uninspiring rubbish. The team is in the mould of the manager.
