Medical/Fitness Department

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Sounds like Silva is extremely frustrated with the medical department and I don't blame him.

    Since the sacking of Richard Collinge, and the reason has still not been made public, things have gone rapidly downhill.

    We've gone from the club with the fewest injuries just two years ago, to the club with the most, and this has been a problem for the last two seasons, since the new medical department has been set up.

    What is the reason? Have the club been incredibly unlucky, or the sacking of Collinge leading to the increase in long term injuries just a coincidence? Or have the club made a huge error and changed something that was working very well, invested a lot of money in their belief things would be even better, but have failed miserably?
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    LutherB likes this.
  2. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    But how can Silva not know? There has to be a large dollop of Wenger-esque "I didn't see it" going on here. It suits him to say nothing publicly as he's not responsible for it and nothing good with come from outright criticism. But if as Head Coach he's genuinely not meeting with them periodically to understand the fitness and prognosis of key missing players he's either not doing his job right or needs to speak out.

    Collinge was binned to enable the restructure wasn't he? I never saw any allegations of anything untoward there.

    I get the impression Gino still likes to look for value in things. We tried it with the new pitch for a couple of years and it was frankly a complete disgrace. The Spanish grounds staff then got sacked, we brought in a proper professional and low and behold it's like a snooker table out there even in mid-winter.
    Hairyfrog and Jossy like this.
  3. Legends

    Legends Reservist

    Maybe Silva is using this as an assertion for more signings within this transfer window?
  4. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    As someone mentioned on here a good medical department can rescue points by getting players fitter and recovering quicker from certain injuries. They could do with a look at the training surfaces and it's hardness compared to Vicarage Road and the exercise regimes the players are on. If I was Silva I would be frustrated too. With our squad mostly fit we would be far more of a threat and maybe even better defensively too with all the chopping and changing injuries have caused. A settled defence is often a cornerstone of a successful team.
    Hairyfrog likes this.
  5. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Reservist

    Or absolving himself of responsibility for failures on the pitch?

    Either way, the physio room seems to be run by Edward Scissorhands and Dr Frankenstein.
  6. vic-rijrode

    vic-rijrode First Year Pro

  7. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Ahhh the mythical Richard Collinge, the undisputed King of Physiotherapists, a Hippocratic god in a field of charlatans and quacks. Only Richard the Physioheart can save us now...

    I'm sure he was good at his job and everything but this idea that his sacking is the root cause of all our injury problems is bizarre. Can any physio be that much better than everyone else in his field? If so, why isn't he being paid a fortune at Man City or Barcelona?
    352 and Clive_ofthe_Kremlin like this.
  8. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    Maybe he wasn't the best in the world, but just a helluva lot better than the present shower
    Banjo and The Voice of Reason like this.
  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    You think it's a huge coincidence then?

    That's fine if that your view, but I don't believe in coincidences of that magnitude.

    I think it's fair to think that the methods Collinge used are far superior to the way we operate now. Maybe Collinge was an advocate of preventative injuries rather than being reactionary? In fact I know he was.

    Just like some coaches/managers are better than others so too are physios.

    Clearly the owner wanted to improve the medical department and didn't see Collinge as part of this, for whatever reason. Maybe he disagreed with the direction they wanted to go and that's why he was sacked?

    You can only judge whether something is working or not by results. This applies to any field of work. If you're producing good results you are seen as good at your job and of course the opposite applies.

    You can only judge the medical department on their results. They have taken a club with the best injury record in the league and made it the worst. That's an epic fail in my book and it is harming the club.

    As a thought, maybe this is why the transfers are not a forthcoming as everyone expected....and I include Silva and Duxbury in that. Maybe money is being diverted from transfers and into upgrading the medical department. Only last week I saw the club was advertising for a new physio. This falls in line with Giraldi's interview today when he referenced getting players fit again rather than buying players was their top priority.
    Banjo and RMT79 like this.
  10. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Did we really have 'the best injury record' under QSF? Is it really now the worst? No one can actually say definitively because there's no universally accepted definition or way of measuring it. One website says we were the worst last season. Another says there were 4 clubs with worse records than us (2 of whom went down). Has the situation got worse? Definitely. Is it now the worst in league? I'm not so sure.
  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    There are often league tables published throughout the season for injuries. Sky will often show one during their sports reports. Under Flores Watford had the best injury record. I saw only last week us and Everton had the worst record this season and it was a similar story last season.

    It doesn't really matter if we are the worst or the best. What does matter is the fact our injury record has taken a dramatic nosedive since the medical department was installed. That is beyond all doubt and something has to be done about it. I believe the penny has finally dropped with those running the club and I have a feeling there will be changes made in the very near future.
  12. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    You can't safely draw any conclusions without better knowledge of what's gone on in the medical department. Correlation does not mean causation. There could be numerous other factors - he was sacked near the start of Mazzarri's tenure so the only Premier League season he oversaw was under Quique. Maybe Quique's less intensive training methods led to fewer injuries? The truth is we don't know. Perhaps Collinge was part of the reason we suffered fewer injuries, I just don't get why he's lionised on here when no-one knows what's actually happened.

    I also have no idea what a "preventative injury" is. One you deliberately get to speed up the healing process somewhere else? Whatever it is, I'm sure he can't be the only practitioner of it.
    dynamo380 likes this.
  13. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Preventative injury is when you put methods into place which reduce the likelihood injuries. Such as healing time, stretching particular muscle groups, monitoring the athlete closely, knowing his body and what his weaknesses are. Accurately predicting how much work athlete can get through without breaking down. It's a precise science and it's one you can easily get wrong. There are different approaches to this kind of thing and it just depends what method you adopt.

    There seems to be frustration amongst players over the time they take to heal. It seems to me it takes longer than usual for the injury types they are experiencing. There seems to be an ultra cautious approach before the medical team release a player for duty. This can also lead to secondary injuries, as the body tends to lose its robustness to the daily training routine unless it is exposed to a gradual building up process. Again this is something that has to be exactly right.
    RMT79 likes this.
  14. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    If the showers are causing the problems surely we need a plumber not a doctor?
  15. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Financially , it would make sense to pay a medical staff as much as players if that meant getting the very best. If indeed a higher paid medical staff could reduce injuries by say 50% you would get that money back ten fold. ie Pereyra who plays less than 50% of games due to injury means his wage per game is effectively doubled and his transfer fee is also effectively doubled.

    Of course, its a moot subject as to how much proportional gain can be made between a mid level medical staff and a top level medical staff, or is it just luck in terms of injuries.

    Im not an expert and so I cant comment from a truly informed pov, but in terms of spreadsheet economics it makes sense.

    Its a similar situation to managers , up until just recently, getting paid far less than players when a manager can have far more effect than a single player in terms of overall team performance.
    steve harrow likes this.
  16. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Our medical team do seem to be simply awful over an extended sample. Recovery times are never known even for seemingly routine knocks. Hasn’t Britos been out for 2 months with an injury reported as a “bruise”? We also either have the most injury prone set of players or our physical preparation is incompetent. They just seem to be utterly clueless, from the outside anyway.
    Hairyfrog and Banjo like this.
  17. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Dcotors are cheaper per hour than plumbers. Probably the reason why.
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  18. Whippendell Woods

    Whippendell Woods Squad Player

    My impression last season and this was that the players getting injured with hamstrings and the like (Janmaat, Pererya, Zarate for instance) hadn't been with Watford very long to do a proper Watford pre season and benefit from any of our training methods. The established Watford players weren't going down with those types of injuries.

    At no time during the Pozzo era has there been full and frank disclosure of serious injury, and often of any update at all. I know Gino is discreet himself but I wonder if that is policy to preserve future player transfer values, ie say nothing or play down the extent of that damage on a career of a player?
  19. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    I guess that's why there are no leaks from the club on injuries!
    folkestone orn likes this.
  20. Loyalhornet

    Loyalhornet First Year Pro

    I’m sure that the club appointed someone fairly recently in the medical department who was interviewed and said he would be implementing a different approach . He said it would take a while for the club to see the benefit, bit he would expect injuries to start reducing over time . I might have dreamed it ( as I’ve had quite a few watford related drama lately, including wrestling with Elton john on the pitch in only my pants and getting him in a headlock ) but if true it looks like the club have recognised the issue and are doing something about it , but unfortunately we probably won’t see much improvement this season .

    I too find the whole injury thing a bit weird and frustrating . Im sure in the old days there would be a weekly update on all injuries even if it was just in the herald and post ( remember that ?)
  21. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    Wow! don’t hide that info in this thread, it deserves a post of it’s own in the Watford dreams thread!

    In October, Watford got rid of the fitness coach they appointed in the summer. I don’t know whether or not he was replaced.
  22. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Nope. Gavin Benjafield - Performance Director.

    Pretty sure he's still at the club.
  23. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    The Kiko situation at Palace was absolutely farciable, how can a player recovering from an injury be named as sub and come on for five minutes before doing further damage! If I was Gino I would want a full explanation as the whole thing smacks of incompetence!
    CaveManHornet, PowerJugs and kVA like this.
  24. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    We had him on loan from Udinese didn't we?
  25. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I can’t really see how it can be down to incompetence on a grand scale. Isn’t the way the Pozzos run their clubs designed to be identical across all clubs? It’s obviously been successful for a number of years and until the last two seasons they haven’t been know for having a particularly high injury rate have they?

    I’d put it down to two things, bad luck (both with injuries and the type of players they have bought, I.e. injury prone) and very bad communication.

    I think the latter is key, a lot of these injuries have probably been known to have been more serious from he outset, but for some bizzare reason the club haven’t communicated this hence leading the impression of incompetence.
    Hornet86 likes this.
  26. kVA

    kVA Reservist

  27. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    If anything sums up our medical department it is the Britos fiasco. Goes off against Newcastle with a knock. Silva says he is a doubt before Man Utd game (fair enough). Silva says he is a doubt before Spurs game (fair enough).

    And now 9 games after Spurs and almost 7 weeks since he went off with a knock???

    It is obviously more serious than a knock but perhaps a tiny bit of communication would stop them looking like buffoons.
    NorthHarrowHornet likes this.
  28. ITKJim

    ITKJim Reservist

    Wasn't it a bruise? So not even a knock! It's pathetic.
  29. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    On transfermkt website it says he has a “training deficit” whatever that is!
  30. vic-rijrode

    vic-rijrode First Year Pro

    He's not run round enough.
  31. Luther Bassett

    Luther Bassett Reservist

    Lazy sod is always cadging lifts from the bottom car park on the golf buggy used for transporting fans with mobility problems. Never looks very injured when leaping off at Rookery corner.
  32. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Out of interest, has a single player actually recovered from an injury this season? I'm sure some have but it seems once they get a knock or a pull or whatever, that's it, they're gone - never to be seen again
  33. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Another thing for you to be a worried about.
  34. Luther Bassett

    Luther Bassett Reservist

    Moshiri’s had a word with Lukaku’s mother’s voodoo Doctor. Payback for not letting Silva go.
    Shakespearo likes this.
  35. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery....

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