How Do We Fix It?

As nice as it is to have an academy player come through once in a while I think the notion that maintaining or attempting to maintain an elite academy isn’t worthwhile financially is spot on and one of the best decisions the club have made in recent years. Given who we are and the nature of academy recruitment these days, we’d be losing these potential first team we’d to Chelsea or United or City for 500k each time just like we did with Sancho. Brighton just ‘sold’ the v highly rated England u17 captain to United - and that’s Brighton who are incredibly well run and have much more cash and a much stronger academy than we do. Many of the examples shared above not only are not true academy players as you highlighted, but rarely did much/made that much money for their club anyway.

Investing in youth is definitely something we should be doing but I don’t think that our academy should come into it really. What we should be doing is building a more robust u23 structure/and a more organised system of foreign and lower league loan destinations and hoovering up talented players age 16-24 with a view to having them join the first team squad. This should include big academy misfits and lower league talents.

I can’t remember their names but I think we’ve already had two highly rated u16s hoovered up by the top 6 this season. And while some will say “oh well if we had a more robust academy then they’d stay” the experience of Brighton and others shows that that’s not really true.

 

I don’t believe anyone would’ve taken it as tongue in cheek as it’s what you constantly say, with the odd unsubstantiated and vague caveat chucked in.

 

No it isn't. But it is a great example of how you like to argue against a position that you wish someone was taking rather than against what they have actually said. I constantly say that we are where we are as a result of pure bad luck and that they should carry on exactly as they are, do I ?

 

How many non-cat 1 clubs have academy players regularly appearing for their first team? Genuine question, I've got no idea if we're a massive outlier or not

 

I think one of the issues we've had recently is that our elevated prem status has meant it's an even bigger challenge for young prospects to get close to first team action. Add that to the general theft of youth prospects and it's a pretty hopeless pursuit. As you say, picking the best of those released by the largest clubs may be the best route but even then, the likes of T D-B aren't good enough for even the champ it seems.

 

We fix this mess by getting rid of Gino, overthrowing the government and then giving Russia hell.

This is my 3 point manifesto which I guarantee will be completed within a week.

 

Yes, yes you do.

 

No issues with any of that but even when we pick up released players, they're duds. Sam Dalby, Baylis Adams (sp). Why are QPR seeing something in Eze to give him a chance before us? Reading gave Olise a chance after his release from Man City. These clubs aren't miles from us, in fact, geographically probably two of the closest with similar budgets and footballing history. Don't get me wrong, there's probably 30+ teams that also could've picked up Eze, Olise, Bowen etc but I'd like us to have ONE story. In ten years to not have one is negligence rather than bad luck.

 

"Pure bad luck" and "should carry on exactly as they are". I've said exactly that have I ? Or do you mean, that's what you'd like to think I meant?

What I HAVE actually said is that I believe we are competing against clubs with vastly superior finances and so needed to assemble a prem quality squad on a relative shoestring. A tough ask and we have failed to do that. I've also always said that I thought we'd be relegated this season in line with the bookies expectations and that medium term we will probably settle back as a championship team.

If by "fix it" the thread means "become an established prem club" then the only answer is greater financial investment to allow us to compete. It's no great co-incidence that the 4 smallest clubs financially in the prem are in the bottom 6 and could well finish bottom 4.

 

Don't disagree with any of this (I've posted similar things in the past so naturally I would agree ). I might add that we should reconsider the decision to not invest in a Tier 1 academy. I realise the expense can be prohibitive, but it could provide an additional pipeline and given the changes in immigration, loans allowed, etc. may be the correct call now. Once established, it could also lessen the pain of having to sell players once they become successful and too costly for us to retain.

Unfortunately, a lot of this requires a predictable income stream which is of course very challenging if you are bouncing up and down to the Championship.

 

Found myself at this juncture before, the major problem I had with it was, and I know it's a wider question but what exactly is the purpose of football right now if we basically can't even enjoy promotion knowing it's going to lead to a season of defeats and relegation?

 

In fairness it seems like we've started to consider that approach a tad more as of this summer with the signings of Baah, Pollock and maybe Morris.

Tomas Galvez by Man City and Travis Akomeah by Chelsea.

 

It's fair enough to question why the few off-casts we do end up picking up from the bigger clubs tend to be duds, bud the likes of Eze and Olise will be the exceptions more than the rule - there will probably be at least 10x as many released top 6 academy players who get picked up by lower league clubs but don't end up making it to the PL for ever 1 of Olise or Eze.

At least in Joseph Hungbo we seem to finally have one who might be an alright player for us, even if that's likely to be as a bench option in the Championship.

 

I agree completely. I ask myself the same question. I guess the answer is that, defeats and relegation post promotion are very likely but not certain. Brentford may survive this season for example. It makes that first relegation under Pozzo so frustrating because we had done so well to establish ourselves against the odds despite being outspent, and I think it's unlikley we will ever get back to that position...but you never know. As always, it's the hope that kills....

 

Not sure we had kept THAT many of the promotion side had we ? TD & OI plus Gomes and the irrepressable Cathcart. Abdi was marginalised, Gueds didn't get a look in. Parades, Angella, Anya, FF, Vydra, Tozser, Connolly, Layun, Motta all gone.

 

I don't think that was the major problem.

Again, it stems down to a Pozzo problem, always some hole we haven't covered and maybe that is because of finances but the team that got relegated most recently.

Doucoure, Capoue, Hughes & Pereyra is a top 10 midfield plus Deuolufeu and Sarr as wingers, that is exceptional for a club our size.

We handicapped ourselves by also filling that team with Deeney, Gray, Cathcart, Kabasele and Masina. Many who were way past their sell-by date and clearly not good enough, I reckon £5-10 million was enough to fix that squad.

This season, Dennis, Sarr, Cucho, King, Joao Pedro is actually decent but we go into the season with Cleverley still a midfield option, Masina until Jan! Femenia, Cathcart etc. Yes Samir and Kamara have addressed some of those glaring deficiencies but again £10 million in the summer could've fixed it much sooner.

Such a shame, it might be rose-tinted but I look at Norwich and I just see no hope, there's a lot needing doing there, that's a team destined to go down but I look at us and we are again two signings off being far more competitive, very avoidable.

 

Irrepressible Cathcart

 

Wasn’t Gueds a fixture under mad Walt or am I misremembering that?

 

I think he played a few games under Walt but thought he barely got a chance in that first season back under QSF. Fans were so delighted to actually sign him late in the summer window, then he barely played.

 

What were your honest expectations for our PL season under GT? And for the season under Boothroyd? GT even gave out a guarded hint at what was coming when he said he would not countenance spending that might risk the financial future of the club in a desperate attempt to buy PL survival.

I still think it's possible to enjoy winning promotion to the Prem when it happens even in the knowledge we'll probably go straight back down again. That means we can also enjoy the rare seasons when we manage to stay up.

I think Pozzo desperately tried to keep us competitive in the PL, but after the 3rd season, the benefits of the Udinese link & scouting network had withered away as the competition had caught up with it. His response was to throw money at it in a market he had never really had to opertae in previously, hence his growing reliance on 'favoured' (ahem) agent(s) who he hoped could work the oracle for him. The current mash-up of a squad is all the evidence we need that he failed in this attempt & that we'll probably have to accept a reset back to a status even the great GT could not prevent.

 

Opposition teams were no longer being 'surprised' by them & the way they worked as a front 2 & we had little else to offer in a creative sense to change our approach.

 

This. 100%.
The problem is the Udinese link and the scouting network doesn't supply ready made players good enough for the prem. At Championship level, they may once again prove to be a useful source as with Sierralta last season (not so much Perica !).

 

Femenia named along Cathcart, Masina and Cleverley. Unbelievable! He's probably probably a top 5 player of the season for us this year

 

Signing Sarr was the biggest issue we've ever had. Duxbury thought we had made it and wanted to express that by buying a player far beyond what we should have been paying for players. A club like us, with the wealth of owners should never be purchasing player for north of £30m. There have been plenty of other mistakes since but that for me, that was the start of our downfall and once your in it, it's mighty difficult to turn it around again

 

We still have Everton, Leeds, Brentford, Burnley and Leicester to play at home!!!

And yes I know that our home form has been **** this season, but if we can just get a win and break that hoodoo I think the flood gates will open and we could possibly win four of those five games.

Lets face it all of them are down in the bottom half with us, so in theory we should be able to beat them and furthermore four of those five home games are six pointers, so not only would it be doubly good for us but doubly bad for our opponents at the same time.

I know it's a massive IF on current form, but if we could manage to win four of those five home games I think it might be just enough to stay up, especially as they are all down in the mire with us.

 

The floodgates certainly opened after the Man Utd win at home. Unfortunately at the wrong end.

 

The Udinese link is only of use getting out of the championship. There was no reliance on it on the PL. It stands to reason you have to spend money in the PL to survive and thankfully that’s where the £140m+ of revenue comes in. Gino just neglected key positions and prioritised making a profit on players over strengthening the first team. If his sole focus was remaining in the PL ahead of absolutely everything else we probably would never have been relegated.

Why else would you spend £40m on a winger just after giving a 4 year contract to a manager who doesn’t play wingers and did want the player? It wasn’t desperation or lack of knowledge, it was misguided and misaligned prioritises.

 

He was poor in that relegation season man, he was fantastic with Sarr a division below. I still think a lot of goals are conceded down his side.

 

He actually made 19 league appearances for us that first QSF season, but for a grand total of only just over 400 minutes - so he was rationed like a precious commodity, basically.

Only 12 appearances under Wally in 16/17, but for just over 700 minutes, and in only the first half of the season, so almost a doubling of real-time visibility amounting to about half of all possible minutes!

There seems little rhyme or reason about where and when they came in that half season, though, looking at them, which perhaps somewhat helps explains something I had no recollection of whatsoever, which was his slipping out the door to Middlesbrough in the January of that second season.



Given the pattern of the first half with us, and how it subsequently went with them allied to our insane injury crisis at the tail end of that season that ended with us starting an entire XI of amateur children against Man City, he'd almost certainly have been better off staying put.

 

Interesting points well made. Regarding point 3 (or 3.5?) I'd say it's possible to have a unified and committed team whatever their differences (not just in nationalities). Last week I started a new job with a local council who are big on diversity and inclusion. The more cynical of you might say it's largely politician's speak and this stuff goes on at other councils without necessarily being widely followed, but it does seem to have a positive effect and I've already found a fair few people to be very welcoming, friendly and helpful. Not sure how well this kind of policy would work in football, but it can't hurt to try something like this out at Watford to ensure that whoever we sign, they are encouraged to share their ideas, respect each other and discuss where they are going wrong and how they can improve teamwork, get themselves more motivated and energized for the battle etc. I believe that's partly how Southgate reinvigorated the England team after the Iceland debacle, drawing from managerial, motivational and teamwork techniques widely used not just in other sports but also outside sport altogether.

 

He was definitely poor in the relegation, along with most of the team. Excellent last season as you say, and mostly good this season, with a few stinkers thrown in. For me, teams seem to target our left side of late.

 

Buy a lot of player who are young and raw but talented. Like Baah, Pedro and Asprilla. Have a decent spine in the team and hope the young players can fire us to promotion. Then keep that team with a few additions. We've had no continuity on promotion, so have struggles with bedding new players into the team as well as others stepping up. Plus sign a manager who is given more than 3-6 months to settle a side and embed a culture. Its no wonder we look disjointed so often when the staff are so up and down.