[REPORTED] Glen Kamara

Discussion in 'The Transfer List' started by Carpster, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Your second-last paragraph seems to betray that you do in fact recognise that he is actually the type of player that I and others on here have already considered him to be, both with our own eyes and from stats. However, it isn't simply that the stats are misleading and that Kamara is good all-round, because really it's that he's just not very good at anything particularly useful.

    He's basically alright at keeping the ball with simple passes, and sometimes running with it up the pitch, but ultimately he doesn't contribute nearly enough at either business end of the pitch. He lacks defensive steel, and he lacks goal threat and creativity. It is an exaggeration to say that he is "excellent at breaking up other teams", and his "assets going forward" are underwhelming. He's basically an inferior Doucoure.
     
    neverforgetboxingday likes this.
  2. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

    So do you not think it would be useful to have a midfield option that is pivotal in allowing full backs to play a freer role, especially if our full backs are going to be Kiko & Rose who both offer a lot going forward but can be left wanting in defence.

    He's one of a number of key signings that took Rangers to the next level, an unbeaten league season and another good season in Europe (in relation to where they have been in the last 8 years or whatever).

    I think some on here, like yourself, are getting too bogged down on your opinion of him based on a few dashboards, etc.

    Can you tell me what Gosling brings to the team? Or Cleverley? Or Chalobah? Or Hughes?

    None of them strike me as out and out defensive options or attacking options.

    How many full games do you reckon you have watched Kamara play this season?

    However, if you want to look at the stats, then -

    Defensively, his stats compare as follows
    His duels won % is 57% last season. This compares with:
    Cleverley - 54%
    Chalobah - 52%
    Hughes - 50%
    Gosling - 46%

    And his tackles won % is 62%:
    Cleverley - 50%
    Chalobah - 53%
    Hughes - 50%
    Gosling - 50%

    His interceptions per 90 are lower than Chalobah, Hughes and Gosling but higher than Cleverley

    Then in terms of going forward -

    His pass completion % is 90%
    Cleverley - 81%
    Chalobah - 76%
    Hughes - 84%
    Gosling - 79%

    Final third passes per90 is 23.2
    Cleverley - 12.4
    Chalobah - 12
    Hughes - 18.2
    Gosling - 14.8

    And finally, in terms of ball carrying, his dribbles per 90 are 0.9
    Cleverley - 0.3
    Chalobah - 0.9
    Hughes - 0.5
    Gosling - 0.9

    The midfielders in our squad at the minute are all pretty balanced in their roles but Kamara is a better player than at least Cleverley/Gosling and is potentially even better than Chalobah/Hughes.
     
    WatfordTalk likes this.
  3. barely1egal

    barely1egal Reservist

    I think stats can be slightly unhelpful when you play for a team that absolutely dominate almost every game they play in.

    How he performs for Findand is probably more representative of the role he would have if he came here.

    I do like the look of him, but I also would think there are a lot of better midfielders available at the prices being talked about for him.
     
    Hogg-DEENEY!!! likes this.
  4. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

    That's a fair point but similar can be said about Watford last season in fairness so shouldn't alter things as much as if I had used those players stats in the relegation season for example. I kept in Kamara's European stats as well to even things further.
     
    Hogg-DEENEY!!! likes this.
  5. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    I think Kamara is decent and would improve us but reckon we could improve the side more efficiently (either by signing a player of a similar standard for less money or a better player for a similar fee) by looking elsewhere. Don’t really see where all this “there’s no way he’s good enough; he doesn’t improve us” sentiment has come from.
     
  6. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    You conveniently missed out tackles per 90, where his are lower than Chalobah, Hughes, Gosling, Cleverley.

    Overall, his combined tackles and interceptions per 90 are lower than all of Chalobah, Hughes, Gosling and Cleverley.

    Plus who cares about him being decent at dribbling and making lots of final third passes when ultimately they don't really lead to anything?
    Kamara only managed 1 goal and 1 assist in 2587 minutes.
    Tom Cleverley got 4 goals and 2 assists in basically the same minutes.
    Chalobah got 3 goals and 1 assist in basically the same minutes.
    Gosling got 2 goals and 1 assist in 1/4 of the minutes.

    So again, ultimately where it really matters at both ends of the pitch, Cleverley, Gosling and Chalobah are all better than him in all the key metrics. And arguably the Championship is tougher than the SPL.
     
  7. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Neither you or @nornironhorn are adjusting your stats for possession, it seems. Kamara should naturally have lower tackles and interceptions and more passes/final third passes playing for a dominant side like Rangers. Players like Rodri or Fernandinho for instance are superb defensively but that will only come in tackle/interception data if you adjust for possession.
     
  8. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    You're forgetting that we finished 2nd in the Champ and so were also dominant. Our midfielders stats playing for a dominant side in the Champ should be a fair point of comparison for Kamara playing for a dominant side in the SPL.

    Plus, if Rangers really were so much more dominant, then it makes his attacking output seem even more mediocre.
     
  9. barely1egal

    barely1egal Reservist

    I am not going to pretend I am a scottish football expert but I do think Rangers are far more dominant domestically than we were in the champ at any stage (particularly under Ivic).

    I just don't think he is worth the amounts quoted - he clearly suits Rangers system very well and is important to them and yet would not even be guaranteed to start for us.
     
  10. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

    I included tackle success rate though.

    Anyway, there's no point arguing with you - you have a tendency to always believe you're right and everyone else is wrong on these types of threads/discussions so we can agree to disagree as to whether he would or would not be a good signing. Ultimately, I'd say I've watched a lot more of Kamara than anyone else on this thread but that doesn't seem to count for much.

    It should save us a few pages of this back and forth.
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  11. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Because he probably wouldn't?
     
  12. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    What kinda nonsense is this
     
  13. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Rangers averaged 62% possession and we averaged 54% - a significant difference. And not really - clearly his role isn't to score goals but to win the ball, progress it and get teammates into positions to create chances. Is Rodri's lack of goals more disappointing because he plays for a dominant side like City? Or is it a function of his role in the system.
    It's all about goals and assists (even for defensive midfielders) except not when it comes to Sancho because the Bundesliga is a crap league
     
    LouOrns likes this.
  14. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Rangers fans seem to rate him very very highly. He's been linked with some top half teams, I believe. And as @nornironhorn has pointed out a lot of players have come in from Scotland and done really really well. I think he looks decent, he might improve us if we set up a certain way. He was clearly a crucial cog in a very successful Rangers side. He'd be a better option than Cleverley in the medium terms for sure. But I'd probably look elsewhere given the price.
     
  15. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Based on? You've barely watched him.

    I've only ever seen him for Finland's first game, I didn't know who he was as the sound was off but thought he looked very impressive. No idea if that's his usual level or if he can crack it in the PL, but happy to listen to Rangers fans and Norn as they've seen much more of him that most of us.
     
  16. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    I broadly agree but I wouldn't sign him or any other player based on a couple of performances at an international tournament; Belkalem looked quality v Germany in 2014.
     
  17. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    He’s a much better footballer than both Cleverley and Chalobah, issue is his skillset doesn’t fit with our style, if we needed a Hughes replacement then he’d be perfect
     
  18. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Yep, I didn't say I'd sign him based on a couple of performances at an international tournament
     
  19. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    I know you didn’t - just saying that generally I’m wary of putting much weight on it. Club form a much bigger and more helpful data set. But helpful to check out players as you did in a tournament and see what they offer.
    What if we converted Hughes back into an 8? Not sure he is quite good enough defensively to operate at the base of the midfield and screen the back four in the PL as he did so well last season.
     
  20. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Again, Rangers fans rate a lot of their players very very highly. To the point that a lot of it is misguided. Yes I agree with @nornironhorn point that most fanbases overvalue their own players - but Auld Firm teams take it that step further because they see themselves as clubs that would compete at the top half of the PL when I think that’s miles off reality.

    Cleverley gives us leadership and pressures high up the pitch - I don’t see Kamara gives us either of those things? I’m not debating him being a decent player. But I am debating the cost and suitability of the player and because of the latter, I don’t think he’s good enough to improve us.

    If we are looking at that kind of money on a CM, Yangel Herrera is a far better way to go IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2021
    lowerrous and LeedsOrn like this.
  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Not convinced he’s a better footballer than Chalobah truth be told. Give him a fully fit season in the SPL and Rangers fans would be wanting far more than they want for Kamara!
     
    LouOrns likes this.
  22. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    I think Hughes is fine defensively personally, admittedly lacks mobility, but can’t see us changing now. I do like Kamara’s body feints and how comfortable he is on the ball, and if we’re looking to be more defensive then he’d be good yeah - I’d just prefer Fofana out of the two linked as I think we miss that strong ball carrier and goal threat from midfield
     
  23. RS2

    RS2 Squad Player

    He's no better than Henry Wise.
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  24. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Except his tackling and interception stats were worse than all of our central midfielders last season, including our more attacking ones, so he's not a ball-winner either. He's no Rodri.

    Yet Cleverley had more of a defensive contribution, plus his attacking contribution blows Kamara's out the water. Cleverley isn't really an answer for next season because of his age, but Kamara does not seem a better player.
     
  25. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Again, you didn't adjust for possession. Rodri had fewer tackles and interceptions per 90 than Hughes and Chalobah and only marginally more than Cleverley. But clearly Rodri is the best defensive ball-winner of them all.

    Kamara is a good player, he's got enough about him to be a good signing at the right price. If our scouts have seen enough about him to pay big money for him - I'd be confident that it'll prove a good decision. But I think we'll go elsewhere as can't see Rangers parting ways with him for a price we'd be comfortable with.
     
  26. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    They’re quite similar attack wise, Cleverley’s numbers boosted due to being on set pieces upload_2021-6-17_15-51-0.png
     
    nornironhorn likes this.
  27. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    We don't need similar we need vast improvements on what we have, especially if he's supposedly worth 15m.
    As I've stated there's better out there for cheaper.
     
  28. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    LOL!! Trying to claim they're "quite similar" when the stats you post at the same time say they're anything but is a farce.

    4x the xG!
    2x the xA!
    3x 'through passes per 90'

    Cleverley's stats are much better for everything except the least meaningful 'progressive passes' and 'passes to final third', where Kamara's stats are no more than 15% higher (not the 100%+ magnitude Cleverley has for the other key stats).

    It basically seems as if Kamara plays lots of simple, low-risk, ineffective passes.
     
  29. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    You quite clearly don’t understand the use of stats if this is the conclusion you’ve come to. 4x the xG plays much higher than Kamara, higher xA because Cleverley was on set pieces - 1.5 of Cleverley’s 2.98 xA is from set pieces, none of that applies to Kamara. Again It’s important to point out Cleverley plays much higher up the field
     
  30. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    There is little point in comparing the stats of Kamara with our existing midfielders.
    You'd have to imagine how effective they would all be operating against the likes of Ross County and Kilmarnock week in week out. All their stats would look much better than they actually did for 20/21.
     
    lowerrous likes this.
  31. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Even taking away the set-pieces would still leave Cleverley with double Kamara's xA.

    However you wish to cut it, Cleverley smokes Kamara going forwards.
     
  32. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    Given Kamara’s xA is 2.06 - that quite simply isn’t true
     
  33. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    You're confusing things on this now because in the chart you show above Cleverley's xA is 0.1 and Kamara's is 0.05 - what are these other numbers you're referencing? I don't have them.
     
  34. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    It’s not confusing at all. Cleverley’s numbers are boosted by set pieces as I’ve already said, 1.5 (1.52 if we want to be specific) of his 2.98 xA is from a dead ball, not open play- none of that applies to the 2.06 of Kamara. So if you factor in all of that, Cleverley’s xA per 90 is lower than Kamara’s strictly from open play. Wyscout just don’t have a separate column for that like FBREF do.
     
  35. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Something still doesn't add up:

    in the chart you posted above Cleverley's xA per 90 is 2x that of Kamara.

    Also, Cleverley and Kamara have both played near identical minutes in the league.

    So how can it also be that Kamara's total xA is so close to Cleverley's (c.70%), despite his xA per 90 being just 50%?!
     

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