Discussion in 'The Transfer List' started by LeedsOrn, Jul 28, 2022.

  1. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Sup up your beer and collect your fags.
    Bwood_Horn and Watford Gav like this.
  2. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    If we only signed players who were guaranteed not to be knobheads the squad would be very thin indeed.
    LaClusazSki likes this.
  3. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Just emerged from one of my deep dive, extensive scouting researches by watching half of a YT video on him, which refreshingly had an alt RnB soundtrack rather than trashy Euro techno ( possible benefits of singing homegrown players?).

    Was suitably impressed by the succession of tricks and flicks followed by over/under hit crosses and pacy runs that end up going off for a goal kick, that I can give this lad my official stamp of approval in the full confidence he is a future club legend.

    Welcome to Watford Ethan.
    Steve Leo Beleck likes this.
  4. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    He is a touch injury prone for such a young player.
    He is still an upgrade from Ngakia by a long way.
    Moose likes this.
  5. LaClusazSki

    LaClusazSki Reservist

    Ngakia will end up at Woking or Bromley or a National League South side in the near future.
    He won't make it. The position of full back has evolved and he is one dimensional and lacks pace plus looking frightened to receive the ball certainly doesn't help him. He treats it as if it were a grenade.
    So many young players never make any decent progress and Ngakia will be one of those players of whom we say "what happened to him/where is he now?".
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  6. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Looking at the stats and the pretty much unanimous opinion of the Swansea fans, Christie did play better for them than Laird.

    I don't know why they've not signed him on a permanent deal despite that. Maybe he's asking for too much or too long a contract?

    5 is more than "a couple" - and I couldn't find a single poster on the forum who thought Laird was better than Christie, and not sure there was one who even thought they were equal, while a fair few stated Christie was better than Laird. You're welcome to search yourself to double-check if you really think I'm making this up (which I'm not):


    That could well be a lot of muppets just over-rating him because of his reputation coming from Man Utd - same as Garner before him.

    Did he? Where's that then?

    For instance, after a few games here's one Muff fans' opinion on that very issue:

    "No disrespect to Stacey and Laird but Smith is by far the best right back at the club. We need him on the pitch every game."


    Searching through the Muff forums there does not appear to be a unanimous consensus on him in the way there is on the Swansea forum about Laird vs Christie. There are a few who would like to retain him, and others who weren't convinced he was good enough for them even in the Champ.

    Funnily enough, one observation about him was one of the things concerning things which I observed about him during the Utd pre-season friendlies:

    "This isn’t meant as a criticism but I think Laird is playing quite conservatively. He doesn’t seem prepared to take risks. Of course, that may be simply what he has been told to do."

    This was one of the reasons why I posted above that he won't offer as much "dynamism" in attack as we got from Kiko. In Utd's pre-season friendlies he indeed played very conservatively, and was one of the reasons why I felt and said in my comment that he seems like a player struggling to regain his form. His first instinct was to play simple passes backwards and sideways immediately on receiving the ball, and he was unwilling to advance forward in to space when it was there or try and beat his marker (and the fact that he was doing it both for Muff and Utd suggests it wasn't just instructions, especially when other Utd full-backs playing were more positive relative to him).

    Funny that for your attempt to claim observations from a pre-season friendly are meaningless that one of the most concerning things I observed was the same as that which a Muff noticed from seeing him a bit more in the Championship.


    It wasn't as if he'd done enough to show that he was too good for the EFL though.

    As I've said above, I still think he's a good player, but "very strong" and "premium' is over-egging it. He's fine, solid enough for a side in the playoff mix, but not a star who'll make a difference in helping us to automatics. Also probably not even as good as Kiko (currently).
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  7. barely1egal

    barely1egal Reservist

    Garner was given plenty of opportunities. He was involved in 20/25 games with us and started 12 of those.

    When it was clear he wasn't good enough to start for us after Hughes came back to fitness, we came to a sensible agreement and he dropped down the table.

    I dont see why United would be remotely annoyed with us.
  8. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Happy to agree to disagree, as I said already. Personally think he’ll do well if he comes here and think there is enough evidence to suggest he will. Last season was his first in the Championship and generally second loans at the level are much more impressive than first loans (Gallagher, Guehi, Gibbs-White and yes, Garner too all come to mind).
  9. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I'm waiting for you to be sick down your shirt...
  10. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    It gives us options in that position, what's not to like?
  11. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Translation: you couldn't actually find any Swansea fans, or to a lesser extent Bournemouth fans, to back up your earlier statements.
  12. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Wouldnt be the first time, although I usually make it to the toilet in time.
  13. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Apologies - I forgot that you are always right, Lord Rous. We bask in the light of your omniscience.

    Its interesting how you are now the expert on Cyrus Christie when you repeatedly made claims about his indifferent form for Fulham last season despite being told repeatedly that he made his appearances on loan at Swansea.

    I do spend more time on here than I should considering my work commitments, so I don’t have time to trawl through multiple threads on fora of other clubs to confirm my recollections from last season. But this much is clearly true: Swansea and Martin and Swansea fans were furious when Laird’s loan was terminated; I recall multiple Muff fans wanting to see more of Laird once fit and frustrated that he was not in the starting line up; despite being available on a free Christie is yet to be signed up by Swansea or any other side in the Championship as he is not a particularly compelling option.

    Laird’s style of play - his excellent and direct dribbling and movement off the ball - makes him a good fit for RWB and a good alternative to Gaspar who is better in possession. He is a player who has played most of his football at wing back in possession heavy sides and has improved year on year (recognising that there are some small blips within that). 58 minutes in preseason in a back 4 does not seem as good a way to judge a player’s capacity to play to play RWB as thousands of minutes in the role across two competitive seasons, during which he was widely considered to have performed well, especially in light of his age. He would be a good signing for us and better fit than Christie who is more accustomed to playing in a 4 (though he has done well in a five at times too, including last season).

    If you’d rather sign Christie, that’s fine. But there’s a reason (or multiple reasons) why much of the footballing world (scouts, analysts, rival fans, our own fans) would view us signing Laird as more ambitious than us signing Christie.
  14. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    I'm not really putting forward my own opinion here - I'm largely passing on the opinions of Swansea fans, plus looking at the stats for both players while there.

    I don't need to be an expert on Christie to observe that both things clearly point towards him having been better for Swansea than Laird. It really shouldn't be so tricky for you to comperehend.

    Well I have had the time to do so lately - and I've passed on to you the representative opinions. I'm not arguing with what the Swansea and Muff fans have concluded.

    Also, you seem to have enough time to be writing fairly lengthy posts here - I doubt having a quick peruse of the Swansea forum using the search forum would have taken much longer.

    Except his dribbling stats fell off a cliff at Muff, and he didn't show any of it again in Utd's pre-season friendlies. His dribbling stats decline for Muff reinforces that he was for whatever reason too conservative there and hasn't yet recovered even to his Swans form.

    Yet despite Christie supposedly being more accustomed to a back 4 than Laird his attacking output is better...

    Also, coming through Utd's academy Laird would have only ever played RB in a back 4. A couple of loan spells is hardly an indication that he's especially more seasoned in the role.

    The point is he seemed to be playing the same way as he was meant to have been playing at Bournemouth - timid, conservative, not as quick and sharp as his reputation would suggest. Regardless of whether he was a RB, he still often received the ball with loads of space in front of him on the flank, with the impetus on Utd to attack, similar to as if he were a wing-back, and he didn't attack the space, was ponderous, and typically just took the lame option of a safe short pass back to his CBs.

    Because Laird is younger and so will have more long-term potential, and and has a reputation because he's come from Utd. Meanwhile Christie will be on the decline soon and clubs might not wish to offer him a long-term deal. But purely for next season Christie would prob still have the edge (but would likely need to be ditched if we got promoted).

    It would only ultimately turn out to be more ambitious signing Laird if he somehow exceeds his performances for both Swansea and Muff (and Utd in pre-season), and/or we're able to sign him on a permanent deal at the end of the loan. Otherwise we're just developing the player for someone else while they're still a bit raw, and not really reaping the rewards, while other options who could contribute more immediately, or have been signed on a permanent deal, may have been available.

    Unlike my posts, you've also not posted a single thing from one of these supposed "scouts" "analysts" "rival fans" etc. corroborating your views - I've actually quoted my sources, while you ignore them, but I'm expected to just accept your non-existent proclaimed "sources".
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  15. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    Have you lost your job or something?
  16. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    I’ve made a series of arguments rooted in a different type of evidence from yours but that is also valuable (ie referencing skillset, role, career trajectories of young players and second season loans etc) while yours has pointed to some fan views which is also valuable.

    Laird played in a back four at Muff - that would have a very understandable impact on his dribbling statistics versus those in a back five (though you haven’t pointed to any).

    And Laird on loan (if Laird is worse than Christie) should have no more upside than Christie on a permanent deal as a one year loan won’t experience any long-term upside so I don’t think that explains the relative lack of interest in Christie as you claim.

    You’re pretty set in your opinion, which is rooted in considerable evidence, but I still believe is likely to be proven incorrect over the course of the season. I’m pretty set in mine, which is rooted in a different type of evidence, and yes based on reputation, skillset, appropriateness for the role, and career trajectory. I believe I will be proven correct over the course of the season and that Laird will perform higher over the course of the next season than Christie but for now we’re both speculating based on our impressions and characterisations or their careers so far. Don’t see this conversation going anyway to be honest (though I hope we do sign Laird, or Drameh or Norton-Cuffey as I think they would be good fits). Have a wonderful weekend and COYH!
    Smudger likes this.
  17. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Self awareness councillor perhaps ? Head of Wyscout ? Apparently LeedsOrn is not worthy of posting his opinions unless he provides a detailed thesis and a dossier of figures to the Almighty. :rolleyes:
  18. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Laird Swansea - 2.1 successful dribbles per 90; 2.6 unsuccessful dribbles per 90
    Laird Bournemouth - 0.5 successful dribbles per 90; 1.4 unsuccessful dribbles per 90

    So his dribbles fell off hugely - both in their frequency, but also in their %age success rate (though his success rate at Swansea was also a bit concerning already).

    As a reference point, Kiko in his last Champ season playing RB in a back 4: 0.7 successful per 90, 0.4 unsuccessful per 90

    Referencing what you claim to be their skillset without any views or information to back it up is not really evidence.
    Imagining all young players and second season loanees follow the same trajectory is also not really evidence.

    Neither Laird nor Christie have actually signed for anyone yet, and they're also both players we've supposedly had discussions with but not yet signed - so for the time being there seems to be an equal lack of interest in both.

    Your "well wishes" are utterly meaningless and pointless.
  19. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Nah, I have a relatively passive income business in distributing anabolic steroids - partly thanks to you I'm absolutely raking it in!
  20. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    You mean snake-oil salesman?!
  21. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Well that was unwarranted. I have generally enjoyed your content even though we frequently disagree but I don’t know why you can’t be civil on this occasion. It’s not hard. I’m sorry that you feel that my well-wishes are not meaningful and I hope that a hornets win results in an upturn in your demeanour and you feel able to interact with others in a more amicable way moving forward.

    In the meantime, if you want to consider some data on Laird, LouOrns’ dash below is excellent and shows that (at least when in a back five) Laird is a prodigious and prolific ball carrier, and would suggest that he’d be well-suited to a creative, ball-carrying wing back role. You are welcome to dismiss this evidence as you have dismissed everything else I’ve said.

    Edit: Feel free to have the last word. But I like Laird based on what I’ve seen of him and know about him and would be excited to see him come in. In my opinion, he’d be a cracking signing.

    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
    Smudger likes this.
  22. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    It compares Laird's stats at RWB to players playing RB in the division - something which even you above criticised me for doing.

    Also, dribbling / dribbled ball carries are far from being the be-all-and-end-all when it comes to the modern day FB/WB. Passing range, progressive passes, and crossing ability are perhaps more important now for instance.

    It's the reason why players such as Wan-Bissaka and Ngakia are both utterly unsuited to the modern role, despite being decent dribblers, while TAA is considered by many to be the best attacking full-back in the world right now.

    On that note, Laird's passes in to the penalty area stat is a concern.

    The modern FB/WB needs to be skilled at both.

    At least you finally made some attempt to support your views though.

    I'm more than capable of being civil, but I don't know who you are, plus your comment came across as a mildly patronising diversion tactic, rather than sincere (and considering you don't know me and I don't know you, I'm not sure it's even possible it could really be sincere anyway).

    I don't care that you're sorry, and I don't know why you proclaim to be, or even would be, "sorry" either - that's just another meaningless statement.

    And yet I'm one of the more positive posters on here.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  23. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Andrew French was asked on Twitter re Laird and said:
    “I’m not being evasive but I try only to write/say something when I know it’s pretty much done and dusted “

    In contrast, was subsequently asked about Ebosele and he said something like “not a name mentioned to me.”

    Perhaps I’m reading too much into this but suggests that Laird is being actively worked on.
    Smudger, Spoad and TomWatfordFC like this.
  24. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    It'll be telling whether Laird plays for Utd vs Rayo Vallecano on Sunday.
  25. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    He did travel with the squad, for what that’s worth.
  26. The girl in row H

    The girl in row H Academy Graduate

    i find it really upsetting to read things like this. life is so short
    Bwood_Horn, Smudger, hjw and 2 others like this.
  27. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Again, who are you? And what's the point in your supposedly feeling "upset" over such a thing?
  28. The girl in row H

    The girl in row H Academy Graduate

    who am i? i'm not sure why that matters but like you presumably i'm a big watford fan and i wanted to be able to read other intelligent fans' opinions. and wanted to do it without reading insults, which unfortunately is becoming ever more frequent on this forum.
    i wasnt "supposedly" upset, i was upset cos i want people to be nice & im sorry that im more sensitive than you are. perhaps im the wrong gender, maybe too young for this place. I wanted a place to be able to discuss all things watford, the club we all love, without the abuse and insults, some of which, at times, has bordered on misogynistic. im sure, like in plenty of places on the internet, people have just become too immune to notice
    this should have been a really nice place to discuss the horns but it degenerates too often.
    Not always. have enjoyed reading some really intelligent comments from people like @Burnsy @Malteser2 @Jon G @Steve Leo Beleck & @hornetboy1 and several others but i think this isn't a place for me now so im going to delete my login. its not the enjoyable forum i thought it would be &makes me rather sad.
    enjoy the season, lower rous. Be kind. Xx
  29. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Reservist

    I can't bring myself to. Couldn't risk another one eating her spaghetti like that. :eek:
    Malteser2 likes this.
  30. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    State of this thread.

  31. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

  32. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Who are you again?
  33. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    It’s not nice to watch people eating with their mouths open, particularly one who would be such a poor choice for a babysitter.
  34. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    You’re right, sorry.
  35. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Still luv you tho hun. Mwah, mwah.
    Keighley likes this.

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