Discussion in 'The Transfer List' started by Ghost of Barry Endean, Jan 6, 2022.
*almost exclusively in the last 24hrs. But it’s a BWO team effort. It’s just been my shift…
Do we know this?
He is available for selection though, we’re just choosing not to select him.
He was overweight when we signed him and he was overweight whilst at Newcastle. We basically got what we paid for, if we wanted him to be fitter than he was when we signed him then we needed to work that into his contract, and we clearly didn’t.
I was joking about the punts. Apologies, I didn't mean to absolve the owners in my post, more I was trying to apportion blame. I would love to know what's in the contract, not just the money but is there and caveats as @Jumbolina mentions
I'm available for selection but am clearly not up to the job much like Rose. he is not even close to being fit enough for selection
Well he doesn’t necessarily seemed to have gained weight, he just hasn’t lost anyone from when he joined. He was selected at the start of the season based on still being overweight, so the club haven’t exactly helped themselves because of he isn’t fit now he wasn’t fit at the start either.
Both are at fault but the club could have better protected themselves so they could just kill the contract if he made no attempt to get fit. I guess there is just a very small chance that we can sack him but are "playing nice" right now early in the window to try to help him get another club ?
I really doubt you can sack a player for being unfit.
Just look at the Jack Rodwell situation, he declared himself ‘mentally unfit’ to play a few times and there was nothing Sunderland could do about it. Unless you have specific metrics built into contracts then it’s all on the club.
Assumption from the fact Rose has said he isn’t going anywhere which followed the statement from the club saying he had played his last game and would be leaving. If we had some kind of fitness/appearance clause we’d activate it no?
Don't know. There's a small chance there's something in his contract that they've chosen not to broadcast yet. If a player just down tools and piles on 5 stone it must be possible to sack them for not being able to perform the role adequately they were contracted to but this clearly isn't that extreme. Clutching at straws I guess.
Must be difficult if there is nothing that actually quantifies it though. Look at players like Ozil, not overweight but just stopped bothering to play, Arsenal had no come back at all, as how do you quantify it? Who would make the judgement on Rose being overweight?
Maybe there is and it's a reduction in salary? Surely not getting fit is breach of contract if it's mentioned or not as you have made yourself unfit for purpose. Not sure of the legality of that but it doesn't seem right that he has basically done nothing to get himself fit and lose weight
Oh I agree. I've managed HR functions before and even gone to tribunals to fight cases on behalf of the company so I know a fair bit of HR law though I'm sure others will be better qualified. I wouldn't put it past Gino to threaten to use his fitness as route to cut short his contract if he doesn't find another club or agree a reasonable settlement. He'd have to train with the U23s maybe and to an acceptable level for the next 18 months. For example if recently signed Fletch adopted the approach that now he's got a 5 year deal he'll literally sit on his ar5e and eat burgers and forget about being a footballer other than popping along to training I'm sure we'd be able to sack him. As you know my point is that we were particularly stupid not to agree something in his contract given this outcome was always a strong possibility.
Hopefully he has the 50% relegation clause they insisted in the summer. I think him not being on full whack for the rest of this season is wishful thinking.
The really shocking part of all this is, that Rose is still a better player than Massina
It’s an interesting one, I guess thankfully it isn’t that common but it’s such a grey area and you feel things are often weighted in favour of the player because if it wasn’t clubs would be tearing up contracts left right and centre, basically it would be heads they win tails they can’t lose, if a players isn’t any good then sack him for something and save yourself a load of cash.
I’m sure there are a few examples of it being upheld but I can’t think of many, the only one that springs to mind is Mutu at Chelsea for taking coke, but obviously that’s a different situation.
I suspect it's a very grey area.
While you can't sack people for medical reasons, you are allowed to sack an employee for incompetence/poor performance as long as you can prove it. This is arguably an easier case to make for football clubs than most employers, since a footballer's job is tied to (non-injury) physical fitness, and clubs now collect a wealth of training and biometric data about player performance. Additionally, when professional commentators and pundits are highlighting a player's shocking conditioning and lack of improvement, that's a strong narrative to support your argument.
If Rose hasn't made any progress in 4 months since joining the club, I think the club could plausibly argue incompetence on his part if he hasn't reported an underlying medical issue. It would not be unreasonable to expect an unfit professional player to get fit (or at least make significant strides to that) in four months.
If he has reported an underlying medical problem, his wages would potentially be covered by insurance so the club might not be paying out on wages anyway.
Would be interesting to see how this unfolded in practice.
They would just cite Deeney vs Watford or the Okaka precedent and we would be banged to rights.
There's also a chance that the club try to drive him out, it becomes a battle of wills and we end up being publicly humiliated as a club, yet again, because of our fast and loose approach to due process.
Why? That is the bare minimum you can expect from a footballer like your pilot not being strung out on heroin in the cockpit?
The only reason I don't think we will sack him is the PFA consequences would be worse for us than just letting him eat his Krispy Kremes in the corner of the dressing room
That’s a very different situation, it’s in nobodies interests for hundreds of lives to be put at risk, it will be absolutely black and white in a pilots contract that being under the influence of any drug would be instant dismissal, and probably criminal proceedings. There isn’t a union or trade body that would be supporting a pilot in that situation.
Rose could blame any number of things on him being unfit, including the coaches methods, our training methods, etc. players come in different shapes and sizes, so it would be an extremely subjective decision about his weight, that probably isn’t actually written down anywhere specifically. It would also open up a massive can of worms I doubt the PFA would even want to consider opening. It’s far more a case of buyer beware more than anything else, Rose being fat has no impact on public safety.
Rose has played several times for us this season in the same state of fitness as he is now. He was even getting some good reviews IIRC with his passing etc... early on. He was fat then and is now but I don't really recall him failing due to fitness? Not my point but suspect that would be highlighted if we tried to pull that card on him.
It just seems that from Arsenal on he just couldn't be bothered, not even a running around thing, just like he didn't want to be there and it showed in everything he did, or maybe more to the point didn't, do. Just really strange, he seemed to go from OK but not very fit to rubbish and disinterested at the flick of a switch. Strange.
I’m not sure it is. He doesn’t like the game anymore, he’s made it clear he’s looking forward to retiring. He was at Spurs, where he’d been from 17 and reached all the highs you can get as an English Spurs player.
He left there (and really didn’t want to) and probably would have liked to have ended up at Leeds, instead he’s at a club that he has no affinity for, an almost immediate change of coach (who appeared to like him) for another who clearly didn’t like him and made it public. Add that to the fitness issues that he seemingly can’t resolve and here we are. We got what we paid for. A last payday for a player well well past his best both physically and motivationally.
You are probably right it just seems odd to me the speed of change, either way it doesn't appear that it will end well for anybody. Probably cost us dearly and if he does cling onto his contract again you would have to think he will struggle to get another one. As you say though, maybe that is the plan.
Rose's lawyers could simply show a photo of Steve McNulty playing professional football for Luton and bang, case closed
He got a lot of abuse at Arsenal. Targeted for being ex Spurs. No doubt he would have been told he was fat, useless and past it by gooners doing banter. Maybe he was called a black **** and nothing was done about it. Who knows?
Abuse - whether it’s because of a player’s past, his appearance, his allegiance, his colour, his reputation…the list goes on…is abuse. Whether the player is seemingly likeable or an apparent tool, the abuse of football fans is just a mob throwing dirt. We’ve seen how it affects a player when Zaha comes to Vicarage Road (and I won’t lie, I don’t like the bloke and I don’t want him to play well against us. But there’s apparent banter, there’s poking fun at people who tend to dive a lot, and then there’s abuse.) We’ve seen Anthony Knockeart lose the plot when our mild fans remind him of that moment he cheated the ref, but embarrassed himself and lost out. I can’t deny it - I still laugh a little. But when it gets hateful and personal, it’s not funny.
I feel bad for Danny Rose. It’s obvious that the racial abuse he’s suffered over the years has affected him more than other black players. Some players can channel their anger and they can even find another level. But others can’t. It’s a shame for him and us. But no one should belittle the evil that is racism and hate. Neither should we underestimate the effects hate can have on individuals. When you’re on the receiving end, you might be able to tell yourself it’s not personal. But it takes its toll and it wears people down. And while I don’t condone people downing tools and being apparently lazy, there’s much more to it than that.
And now, here we are, shaming him for being overweight. What good is that going to bring him or anyone else? People can mock a player because he appears lazy and disinterested. But the really lazy people are the ones who can’t be bothered to consider the bigger picture.
Most of what you say is here is totally fair, and it's good of you to help offer perspective - but with this, are you taking the piss? Seriously?
It's literally a significant portion of HIS JOB to not be overweight. A job he is literally paid millions to do (and which is the dream of probably a majority of kids growing up in this country, not to mention) It's nothing to with 'shaming'. This is melt-work of the highest order.
The really lazy people, in this case, are footballers who whilst being paid millions of pounds, can't even be bothered to remain in a shape and level of fitness that gives them a reasonable chance of doing their job to the appropriate level. It's insane to try and turn that around on those observing the fact.
What a load of absolute nonsense. He’s never exactly helped himself when it comes to opposition fans, by making the comment about spending more than £40k and a night out and saying he can’t wait to get out of football. There is also zero evidence he was racially abused at Arsenal, probably the club he’s least likely to suffer racial abuse given their rich history of black players, multicultural fan base and huge African following, so you’re just making stuff up there. Our squad is mostly made of black players, so why aren’t they also overweight, depressed and also reporting this alleged racial abuse you think happened? What was the excuse against City, more racial abuse? I actually posted a video of him getting abuse from Leeds fans and none of it was racial, he left them as a kid for Spurs so that’s just par for the course with any footballer
He can quit at any time like he said he wanted to if he doesn’t like it though, you do know that right?
As for being abused over his weight, well, he’s paid a reported £60k p/w to not be fat, do you think you could manage it in the same position? Is it any wonder he gets abuse from fans for it when they’re the ones paying his £60k p/w salary and they get to see an overweight player turn out performances like against City?
If you feel sorry for a footballer paid £60k to be in shape, who might get a bit of abuse because he is too lazy to do what he is paid handsomely to do then you might want to look a little further beyond the end of your nose at some of the real injustices in the world.
I agree with Chumlax on this.
The fact that Rose is getting stick on here has got nothing to do with Fatism, Racism or anything other than the fact Rose is basically taking WFC for a ride.
If he has any integrity he should come to some sort of amicable and fair agreement with WFC about terminating his contract. However I believe he is playing hardball and wants to sit out his contract and continue basically stealing a living from our club.
As long as he continues to draw £60k per week from our club, I will support him.
I hope that is just a play on words Moog, and that u are referring to the fact that all WFC fans do indirectly support him FINANCIALLY!!!
I'm a better fan than most, if not all other WFC fans, because I go the extra mile by supporting crap, lazy, fat and greedy players beyond their reasonable usefulness.
More on this week's pod.