Discussion in 'Yellow Pages' started by Cassetti's Beard, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    So my tone makes "legitimate profit" at the expense of others ok ?
    As I said
    Don't moan when it's your turn to get screwed over
  2. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    If you buy a house and it goes up in value, who is the loser in that transaction?
  3. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Those that whoever have lost in a previous crash or those that lose in a future crash ?
  4. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Righty oh… and who is the loser of the interest you earn on the £100 you said you put away each month?
  5. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    The 0.01 % interest you mean ?
    The 5p a year interest ?
    That 5 new pee ?
  6. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Oh right, so it doesn’t count if it’s less. What about if you extrapolate that interest across all the people it’s paid to, it’s not a small amount then is it? Interest is paid from money made by banks by investing your funds elsewhere, or interest charged on mortgages by building society’s, so by your logic there are losers there which you’re profiting from.
  7. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Right ok
    For every £ a bank makes in interest from someone with a few Bob it takes away from someone
    who has an overdraft or has borrowed to make ends meet .
  8. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    But they pay you interest?
  9. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    Yes. My 5p a year interest that I have "earned" has come out of someone's piggy bank .
    Guilty as charged.
    So where do you think this untold crypto wealth is coming from ?
  10. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    I had to lose money at the supermarket last week in order to get food to eat. It's a rigged game, I tells ya.
    wimbornet, wfcmoog, reids and 2 others like this.
  11. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

  12. reids

    reids Squad Player

    I hope you also don't buy things second hand or in sales, as that might've meant someone lose money down the line.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
  13. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    Could an economist answer @Davy Crockett 's question? I sort of get what he's making a point of albeit badly, unlike the examples above items get consumed or depreciate in value, or in house prices they're only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, so ultimately who/what is backing cryptocurrency? Is this a modern equivalent of the tulip bulb market in the 1600s, noting that there are similarities but obviously there are differences.

    I admit that I was sceptical of crypto, but I am probably too late to jump on the bandwagon to make it worth my while, a genuine question to those who have invested, how much of your time do you use to track, trade and analyse your investments? Is it a constant worry? How can you judge risk on newer currencies?
  14. reids

    reids Squad Player

    Barely any to be honest, I have an app on my phone that tracks my portfolio, I update it once a month once I've bought my crypto on payday and I get notifications from it for 5% swings in price etc so that's all I do for tracking. Trading is again minimal as I don't really sell regularly (sold once in the last year as part of my portfolio is for my wedding, so I'd invested £500 and then sold for £1800 - whilst keeping the original £500) and only buy once a month.

    It used to be a constant worry and I found myself checking my portfolio 5-10 times a day but I've learnt to curb that by knowing that i'm in it for the long-term and the prices will fluctuate massively (both up and down) in that time-frame, but it's the price of the coins long-term that matters, so checking it regularly in the short term isn't gonna make a difference to me (as I believe in all the long-term fundamentals of each coin I have) which has helped quite significantly.

    As for judging risk on new currencies, that's a hard one. There's a constant influx of new coins and 99% of them won't be around in 2 years time, so the chances of finding one that'll be around long-term is slim - meaning I don't really invest in them. If I see people bigging up a coin (via reddit, word of mouth etc) I'll take a look at what they offer tech wise and see if offers something different that could be useful to the crypto landscape long-term, but i'm very picky so most of them don't make it (my current portfolio is only BTC, Eth, Holo, Helium, Monero). I miss out on potential profit from the likes of the trash coins like SHIBA + Doge that have pumped hard despite essentially being copies of Bitcoin but long-term should be relatively protected from harsh crashes (except when they affect the whole crypto markets!)
  15. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Apologies, just back to this thread so delayed response. Yes you did, the proof is there, that can't be argued with and you put the information out there for all of us which is commendable. I just wish I'd followed it :oops:.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  16. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    This is business. If you invest into a company because you think they have long term growth prospects as compared to their current market pricing then that growth may be to the detriment of other businesses. If you make the wrong judgement call then that will be to the detriment of your original investment. No different in crypto

    If you don’t like this methodology then you’d better ensure you are not investing in a pension or any form of fund that has the potential to pay off something like a mortgage

    what people are basically saying here is “I don’t understand it and am a tad envious how people are experiencing such growth on their original investment” without wanting to do any analysis themselves. If you’d invested £1000 in Apple 10 years ago then that investment would today be worth circa £12,000. That’s because the business has outperformed the market in those years. The flip side is an investment in a company that went out of business would see you losing all your money.

    investment is about your attitude to risk and your belief in a company. I respect those that make money and leave in a box under the bed as their appetite to risk is very low. I also highly respect those that have risked a lot to achieve what they now have..the Branson’s of the world

    it’s your individual choice
    wfcmoog likes this.
  17. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    Crypto is still very young and it is absolutely not too late to start. Most large altcoins are still in testing. Not intending to rush anyone but November and December tend to be historically exceptional months.

    Ultimately it comes down to mathematics and simple economics. Currently 4% global adoption and only one country (El Salvador) has taken the full plunge to make it legal tender. Add a few more to that and there's only one way for it. Coinbase was the most downloaded app last week, while Amazon today announced that they are exploring how to implement crypto.

    The losers in crypto (and any market) are the ones that follow the pumps in price and panic sell when it drops. Buy the dip, sell incrementally as it rises. Or just hold strong coins for 10 years and relax.
  18. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    Also if you are looking to start, build a solid base of at least 50% BTC and ETH. They are the kings and almost certainly always will be. Lower % returns but no chance of going to zero.

    I'd recommend 30% high-cap like DOT and SOL. 20% play money for interesting trending projects like ENJ (big for creating games and NFTs) or Decentralised Finance (DeFi) like LUNA and Avalanche.

    Just do not ever go all in on dog coins. Do not use leverage - and be patient.

    (Not financial advice!)
  19. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    What about things like Capital Gains Tax? I assume trading in crypto is not strictly treated differently to stocks and shares? As my wife isn't a higher taxpayer I guess it would be preferable if she did crypto rather than me.
    Ágætis Byrjun likes this.
  20. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    An excellent question. There is Crypto guidance for CGT on the govt site and while my understanding is that it is similar to stocks and shares, it looks as if you need to keep a good record of all your transactions. Fortunately, exchanges do that for you, but a spreadsheet probably wouldn't hurt. I've never withdrawn funds so not got first hand experience.
  21. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    Just seen the worst side of Cryptocurrency. A token called "Squid Game" was created, pumped enormously but it turns out nobody was able to sell tokens.

    Within one second, the market cap turned to zero. A complete rug-pull.

    It turns out that it had no affiliation to the Netflix show, the website was deleted and all trace of it has gone.
  22. reids

    reids Squad Player

    It's basically the same as stocks and shares (although you can't put it in an ISA for tax free stuff - although there are crypto ETFs in the works so you can basically follow the market in a tax efficient wrapper). Most exchanges make this relatively easy to pull through though - although only need to worry about that if you sell more than £12ks worth I believe.

    Yup, this is why I'm enormously picky about what I invest in and never jump in on the basis of hype. There's a strong chance that a crypto coin named after an very popular Netflix show isn't gonna be a game-changing coin for any reason (nor likely official), especially since they had a very dodgy website that didn't give much/any information on why the coin was good, their twitter wouldn't allow comments on any of their tweets. None of that gives any confidence in the long-term prospects on the coin = don't buy!
    scummybear and Ágætis Byrjun like this.
  23. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    This happens all the time, unfortunately and creates the sort of fear and mistrust that some of the oldiewonks in this thread have exhibited.

    Of course there are huge scams and people with little to no experience or knowledge, who are trying to get rich quick off of meme coins are ripe for take downs.

    I lost money in early crypto scams and scandals (Dbet, Rise and Bitcoin Private) but made enough from other stuff so that I broke even.

    There are plenty of sharks waiting to get rich off of naive newbies, but then, I used to work in property investment and saw plenty of scams in that world too, but it wouldn't put someone off buying a buy to let.
    reids and Ágætis Byrjun like this.
  24. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    To those cynical of change/future I’m fairly sure that if I told you five years ago that there would be little need for cash, a cheque book would be obsolete and most banks on the high street would be turned into flats/curry houses by 2021 then I’m sure you’d have said I was mad
    Ágætis Byrjun likes this.
  25. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    I know "do your own research" is a bit of a forum in-joke, but when it comes to crypto it is essential.

    And as I've discovered over the last 3 months, it's also really interesting. A couple of the projects reids mentioned earlier are staggering - particularly Helium.
  26. magyarorszag

    magyarorszag Squad Player

    I’ll admit as a complete beginner I’ve got £200 in Shib just on the chance it does some day reach a penny.

    Half of that is from Bitcoin profit. I do think it’s too late for the most of us. Even if you bought £500 Bitcoin today and the pride went up to 1,000,000 your 500 would be worth £11,000. Which is a tidy profit for someone who wants low risk but then again Bitcoin reaching a million probably isn’t going to happen, hence me dropping my profit on a sh1tcoin
  27. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I had £100 in Shib for a bit, purely because I saw lots of sites like Etoro advertising it. I thought it might catch the few newbs who had heard about Doge and missed out. It's an utter sh1tcoin though so not worth any money that you cannot absolutely afford to lose, because in usage terms, it's worthless IMO.

    I gave up on it in the end as it didn't even spike when the other sh1tcoins did. It may get a pump and dump at some point. If I still had it, I'd set a speculative sell order and see if it got filled somehow.
  28. reids

    reids Squad Player

    There's a chance but it's unlikely - a big factor on price is market cap - aka the value of the currency vs the total supply.

    There are 21 million bitcoin that can ever exist. So if you multiply the price (£44,978.28) against the total supply (21 million) = a market-cap of £848,201,332,516 (848 Billion). The price of Doge is currently just under 20p, however there are currently 131 billion dogecoins that exist (with another 5 billion made every single year) that gives it a current market cap of £26 billion

    There are currently half a quadrillion (549,153,006,635,127) shiba coins that at the current price of £0.00005194 that gives it a total market cap of 28.5 billion.

    That means to hit 1p SHIBA will need to rise 19152%, which will give it (if my maths is right) a market cap of 550 billion - easily surpassing Eth and making it the 2nd biggest crypto coin around - which for a coin with essentially no purpose is a big big big ask. Although saying that crazier things have definitely happened in the crypto sphere, I just wouldn't count on it!
  29. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    Shib does at least have more functionality potential than Doge - it can support NFTs for instance. Setting high sell orders is the right way to do it. One thing I can say is that these coins have incredible marketing - if Cardano took a leaf out of their marketing book they might get out of the sinking sand.
  30. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Yes and No. People posted the same as this about Football Index (not on this forum) which was obviously a Ponzi Scheme. Some people actually gave up work and borrowed money to "invest"! Some crypto is genuine investment. Some is the football index equivalent. So your comments, imo, only apply to some of the crypto market.
  31. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    some crypto is like a FTSE stock albeit far riskier and some crypto is like a penny stock...nothing more than a gamble
  32. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    CGT is the tax owed. Current rules mean you have to work out the value of every purchase and sale of coins you own. You're eligible to pay CGT on all profits over the threshold, even if you are just swapping one coin for another or holding the profits in a wallet, buying services or gifting coin to friends.
  33. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Blockchain is revolutionary. There will be some innovative companies that emerge that provide genuine value to customers.

    But my own view is, like in the dotcom bubble, that most of it is funded by sentiment, and plenty of it will collapse when interest rates rise, regulation is introduced, some indebted companies collapse and people make large public losses.

    I think it's important to say, as many people don't understand, that businesses have a tangible value. Its balance sheet consists of its gains over its losses/ debt, and whether its growth strategy makes sense. In some cases, value investors buy companies below book value, which means even if the company goes under, its assets can be sold to a value higher than what the company is being valued as.

    I appreciate that QE and low interest rates have meant a whole load of cash has been pouring into high risk businesses that also make little sense (Tesla was valued at a higher price than pretty much every other car company in the world combined, just because they had a couple of years head start, and don't even get me started on SPACs).

    But investing in assets without balance sheets is not the same as investing as those which do. I have heard so many people say investing in crypto is just like the stock market, which is completely untrue. The stock market is (or should be for anyone who knows what they are doing) far less about sentiment, and far more about numbers.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  34. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    Lots of all-time highs recently.

    Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, Polkadot and many others all entering price discovery.

    Bitcoin also taking on the big guns. Facebook and Tesla brushed aside. I have no doubt that Silver will be overtaken soon. Then it's only Amazon, Google, Aramco, Apple and Microsoft. Gold stands alone (by far) at the peak. Yet if you invested in gold ten years ago you would have nothing to show for it today.
    reids likes this.
  35. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Bought some Loopring last week when it was at 0.5, it’s gone crazy since.

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