Covid: Uk’s ‘worst Ever’ Public Health Failing

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by Moose, Oct 12, 2021.

  1. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Where do I claim the report is a triumph?

    Quote me. Or apologise.

    All I say is that there was balance to the report which you ignored, and that the overall tone of the report is far more positive than you claimed it to be.

    The fact of the matter is clear from the report itself, and I would recommend people read it for themselves, both the bad and the good, because I belive they are both worth considering.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  2. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Be my guest. I suspect, after even your recent posts, you’ll have a very tough job indeed proving the very mild contention that you ridicule my posts is a lie. You do so almost every time you post.

    We can get back to the report any time you like.
     
  3. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    But the “papers” are still highly influential in shaping the political debate, whether online or not

    And plenty of people of a slightly older vintage do still buy them.
     
  4. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    ‘Great credit’ you wrote. I’ll withdraw the humorously intended ‘triumph’ if you like and replace it with ‘great credit’.
     
  5. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    How about you apologise for calling me a liar and saying I ridiculed the report. I didn't even ridicule your post in which quotes from the report are butchered. I stated there would be balance, and there was.

    Again, quote me, or apologise. I can be gracious.

    And if you do not think the report gave the Government great credit when it said the vaccine initiative "has been one of the most successful and effective initiatives in the history of UK science and public administration", I'll leave it to the forum to assess just how honest you are being with both it and your views.

    Again, I will be gracious if you wish to retract.
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  6. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I didn’t call you a liar. You are going to get this shut down again if you carry on. Is that the intention?

    Knock it off or let the mods decide.
     
  7. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Quote me to the mods, or apologise for this lie.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  8. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Not a chance and I think that’s enough between you and I on this thread.

    Like most people find out, it’s not worth the hassle.
     
  9. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I thought you agreed to ignore each other? He and I agreed to ignore each other months ago and I've had him on block ever since. I assume he has done the same.

    It's the only sensible thing to do as you are only going to wind each other up and drown out any decent debate.
     
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  10. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I would be more than happy to. But let’s be clear what’s happening on this thread.
     
  11. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I guess that is the downside as I can only see half the conversation so don't have a clear picture of what's happening at all!

    But what is clear is that your discussions always end up at the same place and it doesn't do you or the forum any favours.

    I say that as someone who has been there. It's just not worth it.
     
  12. Leave it Moose, 'e ain't worf it!
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    But anyone with half a braincell can see that engaging with "88" is a futile waste of time. "88" literally adds nothing worthwhile to the threads - if challenged "88" just falls back on the strategy of insulting the OP or claiming that they have been personally slighted.

    As @SkylaRose's sticky (oooh errr) states the ignore button is there for a reason. Use it for a week.
     
    Moose likes this.
  14. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Classic. Can only see one side of the conversation, and that gets likes. Sums up the point I am making on this thread.

    And yes, I think that everyone can see it.
     
  15. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Fair enough, consider the advice taken.
     
  16. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    miked2006 and sydney_horn like this.
  17. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Again, anyone, quote me on any unprovoked insult I have made, or even point out where I have been rude to any one.

    BW's 88 reference is related to H being the eighth letter in the alphabet.

    He is obviously associating me with Harry Hornet, which is nice.

    God forbid he is continuing to refer to me as 88 because that is a far right reference to Heil Hitler, as he once indicated was his intention.

    Judge for youtself who is piling on and who is attempting to slur other members of the forum, and remember who are only seeing half the story because that is what they choose to do.

    They seem to be pushing me up onto the moral high ground, and letying everyone know that, if they are unaware of the facts, it is because they wish to be.

    Mods. I am not throwing around the insults here, I have been polite, and only pointed out fake news where it has demonstrably been posted.

    PLEASE DO NOT FREEZE OR DELETE THIS THREAD. I HAVE NO ROBLEM WITH YHEIR INSULTS AND SMEARS. I BELIEVE IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAT THEY DO NOT BE PERMITTED TO STIFLE CONVERSATION BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE THE WAY IT IS GOING.
     
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  18. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    I find that extremely unlikely - Peston's just reshaping the blame game narrative. I have heard a lot of anecdotes that senior civil servants and members of the cabinet couldn't actually grasp what the scientists were telling them.

    And the buffoon can't spell 'hydroxychloroquine' correctly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  19. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    They (SAGE, the Chief MO) did do an almighty about turn early doors. The initial perspective was one that appeared to suit the economy.
     
  20. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    The late, great economist John Maynard Keynes always said, "When the facts change, I change my mind."

    I think it's far more likely that my esteemed colleagues on SAGE (and the chief MO) managed to get through to our Lords and Masters that C19 wasn't something that could be managed politically.
     
    Moose likes this.
  21. hornmeister

    hornmeister Club Legend

    This is going well.

    To quote Duncan Banatyne, I'm out.
     
  22. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    The problem for them has been that they have had to present a united front. That must have been mind-mangling at times.
     
    sydney_horn and Bwood_Horn like this.
  23. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    I think it was worth it to consider the report as a whole.
     
  24. To be honest, it gets easier. Now I see 'ignored member' and only have a mild curiosity to see what he is frothing about, and it is an itch that I successfully refrain from scratching.

    Like giving up fags.
     
    Arakel, Bwood_Horn and sydney_horn like this.
  25. Filbert

    Filbert Leicester supporting bloke

    Oooh but when you’ve got a few beers in you in a pub garden and you catch a waft of ignored member from another table….
     
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  26. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    [ANECDOTE]I've sat as an advisor on a few ethics boards populated by scientists/medics/engineers and the great and the good from the various worlds of the humanities, politics and the arts (all with corresponding very high media profiles). It appeared that majority of the panel members from the latter groupings weren't just showing a lack of knowledge of some of the scientific matters/concepts they were pontificating over, but wilful ignorance worn with pride as a badge of honour. [ANECDOTE]
     
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  27. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Nope, I find it repugnant. Although, TBF, I was on, almost, a packet of cigars a day (Kerrist £16.75 a pack!!! It was £5.60 when I gave up and they were 'dear' smokes).
     
  28. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I can see Ignored Member being the name of a highly popular men’s scent if given the old avant-garde French perfume ad treatment.

    Maybe something to put in Dad’s Christmas stocking?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  29. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    What, have the paparazzi managed to take photos of him in his holiday suite?
     
  30. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    Yes, but that was those lily-livered Iti's weren't it? Us Brits are made of sterner stuff. Their battle tanks have got 20 reverse gears, don't you know. It'll never happen that bad here.
    Oh....hang on a minute.
     
  31. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    Yes, the vaccine programme was a great success (caveat: but on many measures we have now fallen behind much of the EU even on this); this could be in part because by then the Government had decided to allow the correct expert organisations to implement it, something they clearly failed to do with the chaotic Track & Trace 'programme'. The report does indeed mention this as a large success. But that success can in no way be used to attempt to excuse those errors earlier in the piece that seem to have been largely driven by complacent & dogmatic attitudes. Boris didn't think it was a big problem, that's why he boasted of shaking hands with people when the clear evidence from elsewhere was that serious social distancing, at the very least, was the minimum measure required.

    Templates on how to handle the outbreak existed from Asia, whilst the potential for catastrophe was clearly exhibited in Italy. All warnings were ignored as 'over-reaction.'

    The Government also totally failed to act upon the findings of its own 'Operation Cygnus' modelling from 2016 which was based upon an outbreak of a serious new flu strain that had the potential to infect up to 50% of the population. Those findings included the facts that insufficient PPE existed across all health & care sectors; that care homes would be seriously impacted and required specific protection strategies developed and implemented; that the NHS was in danger of being overwhelmed; that insufficient research had been carried out to form a view on how the UK public would react to the need for a lockdown as part of a Governmental response to such a national emergency.

    2016 & next to nothing was done. But, hey, let's cut Boris & his acolytes some slack; how could we have expected them to predict something that had already been predicted 4 years earlier.
     
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  32. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    You can get tablets for that now.
     
    Moose likes this.
  33. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Absolutely. You arr engaging with the facts. You slso accept and recognise the positives.

    The report, when it discusses much of the above, also recognises that our approach was parallel with that of most western countries, which proved to be a flawed approach, in that way, it is criticising the western strategy, and indicates that the Eastern strategy was was better, and that we would have benefitted from adopting it.

    It is not a condemnation, it is an observation.

    Just to say, the report itself, in a quote I gave above, says that the success of the vaccine programme balanced the effects that negative decisions had.

    That said, although it is not in the report, the effect of the Government's investment in the vaccine programme, which the report praises most highly, clearly led to accelerated adoption and the saving of many more lives, both here and around the world, than were lost by poor decisions.

    My point, and you will see I am consistent with it, is that the positives should not be ignored, as they were in the OP for political gain.

    I have not criticisrd the report in any way, only the reporting of it and the use of it for political gain.

    Unfortunately, because people have chosen to say I said things that I did not, and because others piled in who did not even read what I wrote, I am being made to explain to you that I have been midrepresented, rather ghan discuss my opinion.
     
  34. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    The term I'd use would be 'went some way towards mitigating'.
    I accept your point that both positives & negatives should be acknowledged. However, if one decides to weigh the balance, my view is still that the latter comes in much higher than the former.
    I also find it difficult to allow the second point highlighted to forgive the earlier poor decisions, especially within the context within which they were being taken, both actual and theoretical when Cygnus is considered. The vaccine programme, as I have stated, should only be viewed as partial mitigation of the catastrophe consequent upon those earlier lamentable (as opposed to 'poor') decisions.
     
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  35. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    The words of the report were: "The success of the vaccine programme has redeemed many of the persistent failings of other parts of the national response such as the test and trace system, so that the outcome is far better than would have been the case without this success."

    And I wouldn't have used such an emotive word as Catastrophy, but your opinion is fair.
     

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