Championship 2024-25

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Hogg-DEENEY!!!, Apr 16, 2024.

  1. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I know Weeds going up is hard to take, but that’s going a bit far!
     
    Hogg-DEENEY!!! likes this.
  2. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Crawley also only just made the POs on the last days of the season thanks to Barrow losing so MK were firm favourites.
     
  3. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse First Team Captain

    Some good away days to look forward to next season with Derby and Pompey coming back up. Oxford joining them would be great.
     
  4. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    Crawley are owned by friends of some of our US relatives. Apparently they were thinking of selling up if they did not get promoted this season.
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  5. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Squad Player

    Oxford gives us a genuine reason to wear an away kit along with Norwich.
     
  6. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Alternative colours used to be known as a ‘change kit’. I always think a team should be proud to wear their club’s colours whenever possible and mentally applaud teams visiting Vicarage Road who do so.
     
  7. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Hopefully if they do go up they remember to bring their away kit this time !
     
  8. bash

    bash Academy Graduate

    The question about MK Dons project is an interesting one. I've been to a couple of games there as I have family in the area and do feel that by now, the club should have somehow taken "root" more than it appears to have done so in what is quite a big city - looking around the stadium the fans seem as committed as anywhere and many of them would have grown up never knowing anything other than MK being a club same as any other - but somehow it still doesn't seem accepted. I sometimes wonder whether fans get abuse at away games etc - would make it extra hard to really get people to buy into it. Also the nature of people moving to MK with their perhaps existing loyalties getting passed down even to kids born in MK.
    I suspect that it was a long term plan of Winkelman etc so they're hardly likely to give up any time soon, but also that they really hoped to be doing better than they are now (and that group of people can't be getting any younger) - I mainly mean in terms of the community and financially, but I guess in football terms as well (and it probably goes hand in hand anyway). Personally, and I am old enough to remember it all happening - I struggle to wish them any ill will.
     
  9. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I will always hate MKD due to the manner in which they came into being. They should not exist. Franchise FC. Thank goodness the backlash will hopefully prevent the same thing happening again. They will always be the real Wimbledon, and the Wimbledon team in league 2 is mkII. MK Dons won the FA cup under their previous name and previous abode. The Wimbledon in league 2 didn’t win the cup. Imagine if the Pozzos relocated our team 50 miles away for economic reasons. The success of Wimbledon mk2 shouldn’t excuse Franchise FC.
     
    Captain Mandibles likes this.
  10. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I agree on balance it's far more preferable to allow clubs to go bust completely like Bury, as the cost of moving them to somewhere potentially more viable undermines the point of a football club as a community entity. But we only know that because of MK Dons. For me they're a curiosity and important part of the long history of English football's development, rather than a subject of hatred.
     
    yellowy likes this.
  11. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    There was no need for them to go bust. Nor Bury. The spending/budgets of such clubs needs to more closely controlled rather than giving them the reward of "ok you can move the club to a better place to generate better revenues that can dig you out of the hole you dug". Everyone chases the dream but you can't spend what you don't have on the promise of future success. MKD will always be Wimbledon, in a different place, with a different name and I would love to see them fade away though the economics that drove the move will ensure they won't. It's only embrrassment which presumably prevents them from displaying the FA cup winners memorabilia in their trophy cabinets ?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2024
  12. wfc78

    wfc78 Academy Graduate

    Think it's more because they relinquished the history of Wimbledon FC and handed any trophies back to London Borough of Merton in 2007.
     
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  13. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    They don't claim any of Wimbledon's honours. As @wfc78 says they signed up to something 17 years ago relinquishing them.
     
    wfc78 likes this.
  14. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I know and that's my point. They are trying to distance themselves from who they were and are. Those are their trophies, MK Dons won those trophies fair and square as Wimbledon but gave up those trophies as they are rightly embarrassed about how they effectively stole another clubs identity and relocated it 50 odd miles away from its fanbase. The fact that a new club AFC Wimbledon rose so quickly has meant they can effectively pass the cups and history over to that new club. If Wimbledon AFC draw Liverpool in the FA Cup there will be copious references back to that cup final, though Wimbledon AFC didn't even exist then. If MK dons, the club that actually beat Liverpool in the final, do, there will be an embarrassed silence.

    How would you both feel if the same thing happened to us in the championship, relocation to a town 50 miles away, and an "AFC Watford" battled their way back to the 4th tier ? Would you say "Ah well it was a long time ago and they have kindly passed us their 4th division title and want us to adopt their history"? That's why AFC Wimbledon fans will always hate MKD, and why I do too. They should not exist in their current form , an MK club could and should have fought their way up the leagues.
     
    Captain Mandibles likes this.
  15. wfc78

    wfc78 Academy Graduate

    I can understand AFC Wimbledon fans hating them and having the rivalry they have. For everyone else, it's so long ago I struggle to understand why people outside of the two clubs care so much.
     
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  16. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    So as long as it didn't happen to us it shouldn't bother us ?
    OK.
     
  17. wfc78

    wfc78 Academy Graduate

    Do what you want. I just struggle to see why people outside of the two clubs involved care so much.

    It appears to be a failed experiment with MK Dons achieving little to nothing and AFC Wimbledon seeming to be in a better place. It's unlikely to ever happen again given the reaction at the time to this.
     
    yellowy likes this.
  18. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    I seem to remember we had to wear one of their kits at their ground, because the only kit we had with us clashed with theirs. Have u got this the wrong way around, or did they do something similar at our place?
     
  19. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    That's a very strange post.
    I'm not expecting you to suddenly care but the "well it wasn't us so who cares" view is surprising. It could have been us and as you say the reaction, and not just from little Wimbledon fans, hopefully means no other club owner will eye relocating their club to Wakefield, Basingstoke, Warrington etc to improve their income, status and asset value. It wasn't "an experiment" and I'm sure football fans in MK will consider it a great success to get a football club out of the blue that has bounced around tiers 2-4. Maybe the attendances haven't reached the heights they originally expected because most MK residents don't consider it to be "their club" in the way they would have had an MK based club climbed the leagues ?
     
  20. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    They had to wear our away kit at the Vic, the blue stripy one.
     
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  21. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Team

    Take us as an example, what proportion of people who live in what we'd consider our 'catchment area' actually support Watford? It's no wonder MK don't have any fans, even if they rose 'organically', it's just natural that most people from the suburbs of big cities are going to support the big city teams instead, either through family connections or because they are glory supporters (especially in a new town like MK)
     
  22. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    1998-99 season .



    They worn our purple, Silver and blue kit .

    Not sure about the other way round .
     
  23. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Squad Player

    TBF I did consider using the word "experiment" in my post above but changed it to "project" because whatever my feelings about what Pete Winkelman has done, at least he's committed to that one club and didn't use it as a guinea pig before messing about with other clubs (unlike some chairmen who somehow passed the "fit and proper" tests, eg Dave Allen, Laurence Bassini etc).
     
  24. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    This type of debate centres on questions that are as much philosophical as legal or literal. When does a football club become Trigger's broom, where the handle and head have been changed so many times it's no longer what it was at the beginning? Watford has had many owners but the underlying business was incorporated in 1909 according to Companies House. There's no actual reason for any owner to maintain that though. Pozzo could incorporate 'Pozzo luvs Mogi Ltd' tomorrow, transfer all the assets of Watford Association Football Club Ltd to that and wind the old company up. Would we be any less of a club for that? Or would it require a name change for the team, or a location move to achieve that? God forbid he surrenders the Ibiza Trophy honour!

    MK Dons as a company has existed since 2003 and as a football club since 2004. I'd guess the only thing it owns which links it back to Wimbledon in reality is the Football League membership share. But then they shuffle around too, depending on who goes up to the PL or down to the National League.

    And I don't think Winkleman or the other people behind the move were/are embarrassed - as far as they were concerned they saved the remnants of a club that had long since been running on fumes. Homeless, bobbing around in nothingness, drawing in very small crowds. Can argue until the cows come home whether they were right, wrong, bent, charlatans or whatever. Probably the best answer would have been for Wimbledon to either go bust completely or drop down to their natural level. I think that would have been the 'right' outcome and I believe is what would happen now.

    Does it hold any weight in your mind that AFC Wimbledon also didn't have the honours/history foisted on them? They've claimed it openly ever since their creation. In fact if I remember rightly it was a key part of their founding that they were the true heirs to the 1988 team etc. They welcomed it back.
     
    yellowy likes this.
  25. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I don't think "the club" is defined by the name of the holding company or the owner. It's defined by where you are based and starting off one season from where you finished the prior season. The fact that a small club hobbling around on small crowds was "saved" by moving it to a town with a better catchment area, I don't think is a good thing.
    If you follow the line that MK Dons only existed as a football club since 2004, how did it suddenly appear in the league in 2004, and what happened to Wimbledon in 2004 ? Could the 2 mysteries be connected ;)? And why would it need to kindly donate it's trophies back to the borough of Merton, it clearly wouldn't have any trophies ? The old Wimbledon lives on, changed it's name and started playing its games 50 odd miles away. I honestly don't know but did the old Wimbledon fans initially travel to MK to watch "their team" or did they just accept that their club had effectively been extinguished ?
    Of course the new AFC W owners would want to happily receive the history and the trophies. It serves their purposes very well to blur the history but the fans won't forget. What if AFC were still an 8th tier club ? Their success in reaching the heights that the old wimbledon would probably be playing at now, and adoption of the history, is lucky for MK Dons as today it appears there are luckily no real losers, just MKD as winners, but that doesn't make what happened right.
     
  26. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Liked him. Funny Irish chap.
     
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  27. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I think I've been pretty clear in saying I don't think moving the club was the correct outcome. In fact I've been really clear in saying I'd rather clubs went completely pop than that, as at least then someone else who has earned the place can replace them in the league structure. So I absolutely agree it wasn't a good thing. Even Winkleman agrees it wasn't 'right' - https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/wimbledon-and-mk-dons-players-banned-1466127

    If I recall correctly there was a split in the Wimbledon fanbase. Some decided to head up to MK and (I believe) still attend to this day. Others got behind the efforts to set up AFC Wimbledon. And I suppose some just gave up completely.

    We actually played Wimbledon in the league at Milton Keynes at the National Hockey Stadium. But after that date MK Dons as an entity was a fresh start legally-speaking. Hence me saying this debate is as much philosophical or about the 'soul' of a club than whatever manoeuvres can be carried out on paper.

    Anyway, that's probably enough for everyone else's taste on this sideshow, so happy to park it there.
     
    yellowy likes this.
  28. Jossy

    Jossy Reservist

    You're both right, sort of - in the return fixture at the Manor Ground we wore a bizarre combo of our silver/blue away shirt + yellow shorts and socks which to this day I'm not sure if they were ours or belonged to Oxford. You can see the abomination in the video below. EDIT - won't start video at the right point despite putting the correct time in so just skip to 1:42:00

    On a side note, I'm glad I went to this game as we never played them again until the League Cup a couple of years ago, long after the Manor Ground was demolished. Also, there was no sign of the electric form that was to suddenly hit us in just two games time.

     
    Last edited: May 13, 2024
  29. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Team

    I had a mate at uni from Wimbledon, he supported the original club, didn't go religiously when they were in the lower reaches of non-league but started going again when they rose up the leagues, judging by attendances, that mustn't be an uncommon story (incidentally he adopted Liverpool as a second club, he was very nervous when Steven Gerrard was linked with the MK job!). AFC were formed in 2002 when the decision to move to MK was made, a year before the move actually happened, and two years before Winkleman bought the club and changed the name (they originally claimed the heritage of the old club but later accepted 2004 as their foundation), so the fans made it very clear what they think makes a club
     
  30. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    I was at that game in Oxford, and I think the kitman forgot to pack the shorts and socks so we had to borrow a set of theirs. It was a long time ago so the memory has faded, but it appears we are all correct and it has happened twice. It could make a good pub quiz question as the same two teams were involved :D
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  31. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought MMC 2010/11 Prediction league 3rd 2011/12

    I was there too and recall being told it was because the referee stated our lighter blue shorts and socks clashed with their dark blue version so we had to borrow some yellow ones from them. But who knows, still very bizarre at the time.
     
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  32. StuBoy

    StuBoy Forum Cad and Bounder

    I was there that auspicious day, and sat across the aisle from Jim Rosenthal, who is an Oxford United fan. Oxford were not very good that season. Maybe the last time they were at our level I suspect.
     
  33. bash

    bash Academy Graduate

    I think this is where I was coming from also. It felt “wrong” at the time, and I have little doubt it was. But I’m pretty sure the early history of a few modern clubs involves all sorts of mergers and geographical moves and other controversies. These things eventually got lost in the sands of time - doesn’t make it right, but such is life.

    I just feel a bit sorry for the children of MK now, doing what might be considered the decent thing almost anywhere else in the country by supporting their local team through thick and (mainly) thin - a team they’ve grown up knowing as their local team - but derided for it more than any local couch based United/Liverpool fan, and I also feel curious as to when (if?) it will all end.
     
    yellowy likes this.
  34. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Team

    Liverpool were formed because the Everton owner had a land dispute over their then stadium Anfield, Chelsea were formed because Fulham didn't want to move to Stamford Bridge (which incidentally is in Fulham!), but probably most egregiously, Woolwich Arsenal moved north of the Thames and muscled in on what would have been Tottenham territory...

    I'm sure there are plenty more of those stories, and to play Devil's Advocate, AFC Wimbledon are not squeaky clean, while they haven't taken anyone's place in the league unfairly, they did take advantage of Kingstonian's financial woes to buy their stadium, which they then sold to Chelsea as they moved to the new Plough Lane, which left Kingstonian homeless
     
  35. Harefield Yellow

    Harefield Yellow First Year Pro

    Nice one ! Well done Oxford.
     

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