I don't think there is an issue with Watford being a selling club. That's a long time accepted model which everyone understands. The main issue, for me anyway, is the motive of our owner. What drives him, why is he at Watford, are we just a vehicle to make money on player trading or does he really want to build something at the club? We don't know because Gino never speaks and SD only ever speaks when times are good. I know Giaretta was interviewed last week, but it was a waste of time, as he was just towing the party line of secrecy at all costs. It's almost a case of, "you trust us by default. We do not have to communicate with you." The hierarchy just do not get it. There is a certain amount of distrust. Not distrust in terms of fans thinking they are bad people who are only here to harm the club, but distrust in terms of where do Watford sit with them seeing as they have another club in Udinese, and where does the priority lie. I think it's clear something happened to about two and a half years ago, whether it was Giampaolo handing over the reigns entirely to his son, or whatever, but something certainly has changed. Decisions that were so on-point in the first few years, have been amateurish over the past 30 months. What the owner should have done is recognised a change in the trend and nipped it in the bud. "Read the room". Give an interview, it doesn't have to be an open forum, but put something on record to reaffirm commitment, share the vision and energise the fans. Give us something to believe in and pin our hopes to. What do we get, stony silence and distance. When someone does speak, it's only stock answers. Duxbury saying things like "don't fall in love with a player" or things along the line of "it's all about avoiding relegation" is so counter-productive. The Athletic wrote a story last week, and one of Ranieri's assistants, Cornacchia, has written a book. In that book he wrote about the common mindset of smaller teams in David versus Goliath encounters, which put them on a hiding to nothing. “It is more noticeable in underdog teams when they play against stronger teams. This ‘nothing to lose’ state of mind can generate momentum. However, it doesn’t last long. Most of the time, they are built just to survive the season. The club usually announces that the plan for the season is to avoid relegation. Their budget to acquire players is limited and the coach has to make the team with what is available. This is the recipe for failure." So the recipe for failure, according to Watford's own coach, is exactly what Scott Duxbury has stated about us this season!! I personally would like to hear from Gino. It's not a witch hunt, we all want what's best for the club, but I would like to know what is his vision, and to be convinced by it. To see a plan to turn us into a viable Premier League club. Even if it's folly, I'd like to hear something tangible from the top as to where we're going, what's the end goal and how do they plan about achieving it.
Had the misfortune to find myself crammed into an underground carriage with some Watford 'Ultras' yesterday evening. Pimply adolescents talking in some strange 'patois' and breaking into songs about Arsene Wenger being a sex offender and Luton getting battered everywhere they go. I'm not bothered by this sort of nonsense in the stadium but it made me cringe hearing it in a confined public space
Sissoko certainly had more than a word with the ref - as he's entitled to do, being captain. We put the ball out soon after, when an Arsenal player went down, but we don't seem to have got any brownie points for that. Haven't seen or heard it mentioned.
Sounds like the sort of fans' that would openly mock opposing fans' with finger signs and swearing if we beat or lost to them. Wanting to act all "cool and hip" for their mates. I don't remember ever being like that, but I have noticed it more and more often in the youth of today. I still shake hands with some opposition fans' after a game, these kid's would do the opposite.
In fairness, gesturing finger signs and throwing derogatory chants back and forth in a football ground is part and parcel of football and should never be changed. A group of adults singing chants on a train packed with non-football fans, who most definitely couldn’t give a toss if “Luton get battered everywhere they go” is beyond cringe.
I'd like to hear from Gino too. Mind you, I'm under no illusion he'd say anything remotely interesting. I think the club is currently at a massive crossroads and that explains why some of the current attempts at communicating tell us nothing. In essence, the answer to most of the pressing questions is 'wait and see'. The original plan was an unqualified success. We got promoted inside 3 years and then once in the PL we stayed up for 5 seasons, for 4 of which we barely ever went into the relegation zone, let alone had any real danger of going down. It really was a remarkable achievement for a club of our size and it earned Pozzo a lot of credit. There was also clearly a point Pozzo was courting outside investment but that didn't work out for whatever reason. I think we needed that and it's a shame it never happened. Then we had the cup final humiliation, Covid and some poor choices all feeding in to us getting relegated with a squad that really should never have been in that position. To recover from that position when you're not backed by a small country's oil fund takes time. Coming straight back up was both unprecedented for us and another significant achievement. Unfortunately it happened behind closed doors and it seems last season is looked on far less fondly by our fans than it otherwise would have been. The next part is clearly to stay up by hook or crook and to not overspend in chasing that outcome. We know our finances were tanking when we went down. The next set of accounts will show an even worse picture but there are some green shoots now suggesting the set after that will show recovery on the balance sheet. Staying up is a legitimate aim and should be the only focus. Everything they're saying suggests they believe they've built a squad capable of going that. I can't imagine Gino going rogue in an interview and throwing Duxbury and Giaretta under a bus, and so we know exactly what will be said about the playing squad. What I would like to hear though is about their plans for the stadium and Gino's openness (or otherwise) to outside investment.
He may well talk bollox, but we need to him from him. You can tell a lot from body language. It's pretty odd to only hear from the owner once in 10 years!!. What does he have to hide? Is the mystique really that powerful? When there is no communication, then people make their own story and conclusions. There comes a time, and it's long overdue, when you've got to re-energise the troops. I think it would go a long way to reassuring fans if they hear from the owner, be it good, bad or indifferent. Without that, the narrative could be seen as taking the fans for fools and a complete contempt. Who knows.
I haven't read this entire thread but I imagine the not giving us the ball back after Rose put it out and the foul on Sarr has been done to death so will leave that. The goal itself though was once again our own downfall. Sarr tries a give and go but the pass from the back which I think Ben White wins was dreadful and we then just didn't react quickly enough. Danny Rose was defensively dreadful. I thought the rest of the defence had a decent game but we need to link midfield and attack much better if we are to have a chance this season. Sarr is getting a lot of stick and without question needs to play better than he is but we're not providing much support to him. Kucka was much better and loved his no nonsense tackling. We need more of that throughout the team. Shame he is suspended now. Foster had a good game but I thought the game was there to be won yesterday and we left it too late to push on. Despite their recent form Arsenal are not a great side and I felt we could have had more of a go. Having said that we needed to tighten up at the back and we did that. Tough games to come and will be surprised if we get more than 0 points in them but there are some poor sides in this league so all is not lost
So...the conclusion from Dermott "I always take the side of the referee" Gallagher in Ref Watch thought it wasn't a foul, although both Stephen Warnock and Sue Smith thought it was a body check on Sarr and a foul. Gallagher did say the Kucka second yellow card should not have been a yellow (thus no red card), however, he did make the obligatory excuse saying that it may have been because of an accumulation of fouls (yeah right). So we were done. Dermot has spoken. https://twitter.com/i/status/1457674570840805381
Can slow the YouTube highlights down to 0.25 speed then that shows what happens. It's actually a pretty weird incident, in real time I thought Kucka got the ball. On the slow motion replay I thought the ball ricocheted off his left (standing) foot and he wellied Tavares with his right. But on watching it really slowly, it's neither of those. He takes a massive swing but Tavares (quite reasonably!) jumps out of the way and his momentum then tips him over. It's a second booking but not for the reason I thought it was when I first saw the slow motion replay. The thing that really galls me is the run up to the Rose throw in. Their midfielder takes a really heavy touch, Tufan recognises this and would win the ball but the guy comes flying in, out of control, gets a toe on the ball but completely cleans out Tufan. A good tackle in the 90s perhaps but hasn't been allowed for years in the modern game and was far more dangerous than some of the bookings - Tufan landed on his back. There's very little difference between that and Kucka's. Both got some of the ball but went in with such force they were endangering an opponent. And that would've been a second yellow for that player too.
I think the issue for me, is that it's there from the beginning. I enjoy watching Cucho occasionally, but he's not a WFC player. He was signed by the Pozzos, along with another dozen of his teenage compatriots, then just happened to just about fit our squad at this particular time. We never had a situation where we needed a player in that role or style and went out and signed them. Our team is filled with free transfers and loans, augmented with Pozzo trading pieces who are here purely as a shop window. That's a big difference from having players brought in to fit our team and then get so successful that they command a fee which means we have to sell them on.
I think a large part of it is down to the fleeting attitude of the managerial position - the players are purchased to the owners ‘transactional’ plan because we point blank refuse to have any sort of coach who is allowed to implement his own way, which obviously would require buying players he wants or needs to do that. Giraldi, Giaretta, Leventhal…whoever - they can all stress as much as they want that the coaches get an input into recruitment but we know that’s total nonsense. No way has every coach decided we don’t need better defenders. No way did Gracia want Sarr. No way did Ivic think we could get by without a left-back. A manager probably does get to suggest players - but I’d be amazed if any of them had ever been bought. Ultimately Gino will buy who Gino wants - or not. And the coach will suffer the consequences of it. Every. Damn. Time. I have no doubt Ranieri will have more of Gino’s ear than previous coaches. But I would still think any suggestions will be ignored. The thing is we were told that we missed out on Maguire and Robertson when they were at Hull because Gino wasn’t convinced. His families hit-rate has gone down massively, let’s be honest.
Yeah but is the coach's ephemeral role a cause or result of the player trading focus? For me Gino is a player trader first and a club owner second and that's why our club's interests aren't best served.
Dermott Gallagher is a complete waste of time and space. As you state , he never and I mean never disagrees with the referees decision. Even to the point where Ive heard him agree with the referees decision and then when VAR overturned the referees decision he then agreed VAR was correct.
Makes you think… Who was the last player we signed that was at the request of the manager? Deulofeu… maybe?
A very frustrating game. We were in it all the way through thanks to a combination of VAR, lacklustre Arsenal attacking play and a mostly valiant defensive display. Nkolou looks very good, and I think it's clear we need to play him and Sierrelta at the back moving forwards. That was one of the worst refereeing performances I've seen in some time. It truly looked and felt like Kevin Friend was doing everything he could to ensure Arsenal had the advantage and was far too happy to blow up every time we went within 10ft of an Arsenal player. It's a shame and I don't really feel like the game flowed as much as it should've because of this. I think Cucho needs to be starting games. I don't think he's the most technically gifted player we've ever seen, but it's clear as day that he cares and the effort is always there 100%. A nice winnable game against Utd after the international break. Hopefully we can put the final nail in Ole's coffin.
Further reflection on refereeing howlers, it was never mentioned in any comms but we had a very clear penalty against Soton for hand ball in the wall from Cuchos free kick. Look on the extended highlights and you can see clearly. Ive included these grabs that highlight it but dont quite capture the point of contact, but do show the arm/elbow moving towards the ball and making contact.
Well, all this may be right. But is it necessarily a bad thing that we are being used as a shop window? Surely, in that situation a player would be trying very hard to do well. I presume that, due to the ever-increasing competition for signing promising players, Watford can only succeed in getting a few of them. If that means they pick up players who do not exactly fit our current needs I don't see that as inevitably being a bad thing. Things change over time and they might fit in later. If some of these players make money for the Pozzos and their 'system' then that's good, isn't it? Where I do think Watford quite probably need to be careful is in the way they deal with these players as humans: By and large the new recruits are very young and quite possibly from less than sophisticated (and, indeed, third world) backgrounds. Pitching them into a ruthless 21st-century global economy should be done carefully. Sarr, I suspect, is an example: A Muslim, hailing from NW Senegal, playing in France from age c 18, and finding himself in (secular/Christian?) England by 21. Fellow Senegalese Sane described him as a 'shy boy'. Maybe I'm wrong. As a further example, and I'm guessing here, I would say Isaac Success' problems were by and large off the pitch. I wonder if they were avoidable. Lest you think I'm being too touchy-feely let it be said this comes under the heading 'protecting your investments'. Of course, we don't really know because we are not told anything. (Equally, a certain amount of commercial secrecy is understandable).
So in the three games we lost 1-0 to Leeds, Soton and Arsneal were actually 1-1 draws if not for substandard officiating. Admittedly we didnt deserve to get anything from these games it is still 3 points that we have been unfairly denied.
Mark Halsey was just on Talksport with Hawksbee & Jacobs. He said he saw the foul on Sarr by Maitland Niles in the build up to the “goal” by Arsenal. Said it was a clear foul Friend should’ve seen. Said AMN knew exactly what he was doing to block Sarr from setting up an attack.
You ask and answer your own question somewhat. Shop window players are shop window players. They are there to show enough to get a move and no more. Look at Sarr. He's scored a handful of goals and assists and now seems to have got an agreement in principle on the table, so it appears he's downed tools. His success and career is not linked to Watford. In isolation, that can happen in any team. You have a player who's head gets turned. But our players heads are turned the moment we sign them. Thereafter it's a matter of when, not if they down tools and get their move. Doucoure, Pereyra, Capoue, Sarr etc. It's a familiar story. None of these players expected to be here probably as long as they were, so they seemed resentful and lacking in effort once they had gone past the 1 or 2 years they thought Watford deserved of their service, even if there was no tangible offer on the table to move them on.
And let's not forget....if you live in most of Norfolk & large parts of Cambs & want to follow a reasonably good team, there is no real competition. They ought to have much larger guaranteed support than we do.
Yes, the incessant rubbish about 'battering' Luton fans is particularly nauseating...you'd probably get blown over by the wind caused by the speed of their departure if they ever actually came up against any of them.
Fair question - sorry - pure speculation on my part that he has a deal to move in Jan as has been rumoured. Very difficult to see how he's dropped into this absolute half arsed slump if he still needs to win over a suitor.
Fair enough, thought I'd missed something. Interesting if he has because not sure where he might go. I know there is the Newcastle rumour but I'm not sure he would go for that and I can't see any of the big boys being interested. Hopefully the international break will help and he will come back with a bit more confidence which is what I think he's not lacking, not being uninterested. Hops so anyway as we need him if we are to stay up
To be fair, the disallowed goal at Leeds & allowing the goal yesterday were totally incompetent decisions & would have been seen as such before the introduction of VAR...to still make those decisions after using VAR is just ridiculous. I'm coming to believe VAR should be used purely for 'line' decisions....offsides & was a penalised challenge in our out the penalty area. On every vaguely subjective decision it's proving almost impossible for the VAR 'operator' to accept there has been a 'clear & obvious' error. Then just let the original on-field decision stand without scrutiny.
Ha ha! Yes, from their ages I doubt any have ever attended a Watford-Luton game or had the pleasure of visiting Kenilworth Road!
I see it differently from you. He's just not trying full stop from what I can see. In defence, attack, anywhere. It's infuriating and completely unacceptable.
