2022 - 2023 Squad

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by EB Hornet, Jun 22, 2022.

  1. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    I wonder how many people in history have said that then have events prove otherwise.

    Agreed about defenders turning their back on the ball though. A massive pet hate of mine, having received a number of heavy wet footballs in the face as a kid. However I cant think of a single modern defender who doesnt turn his back on the ball. Must be 20 years since Ive seen otherwise.
     
  2. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    I've seen Ruben Dias take more than a few but agreed he's an exception possibly.
    Well I really hope WTE proves me wrong and I will be the first to hold up my hand and apologise. I can't see it happening though.
     
  3. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    Updated - tried to place in most likely positions of formation used by RE so far.

    Non-Home Grown (Rule of Eleven) (currently 19) - Home Grown (currently 13) Total - 32

    Maduka Okoye GK
    Vincent Angelini GK
    Pontus Dahlberg GK

    Daniel Bachmann GK

    Kiko Femenia RWB
    Jeremy Ngakia RWB
    Joseph Hungbo RWB

    Hassane Kamara LWB
    Ken Sema LWB

    James Morris LWB

    Cristian Kabasele CB

    Francisco Sierralta CB
    Samir CB
    Craig Cathcart CB
    William Troost-Ekong CB
    Mattie Pollock CB

    Edo Kayembe MF
    Imran Louza MF
    Yaser Asprilla MF
    Tom Dele-Bashiru MF
    Dan Gosling MF
    Tom Cleverley MF
    Domingos Quina MF

    Vakoun Bayo FW
    Rey Manaj FW
    Emmanuel Dennis FW
    Dapo Mebude FW
    Joao Pedro FW
    Samuel Kalu FW
    Ismaila Sarr FW

    Kwadwo Baah FW
    Ashley Fletcher FW

    Possible Extras / Unknowns

    Pussetto
    Penaranda

    Manning
    Rose
    Andrews
    Forde
    Holding
    Mckiernan
    Adeyemo
    Blake

    Not even including Pussetto and Penaranda, we need to trim the non HG by 8 players. Angelini and Mebude could possibly move to the U'23's for the season meaning just 6. Pedro may also come out of this equation as turns HG in Jan so maybe just the 5 to go from here.
     
    Captain Mandibles likes this.
  4. Captain Mandibles

    Captain Mandibles Academy Graduate

    I'm sure in the end we won't end up trimming the non homegrown list all the way down to 11, it weakens the squad unnecessarily. It'll be about 13 I reckon. At any given point in the season, the likelihood is that at least 2 of that 13 will be unavailable through injury or suspension, so this 'having to leave players out of the matchday squad because of the homegrown rule' issue will get resolved of its own accord. Against Wycombe for example, Louza and Bayo were unavailable.
     
  5. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Kalu
    Sarr/Dennis (certainly can’t see both staying)
    Dahlberg
    Angelini
    Mebude

    Pretty easy to get down to 14. After that, Sema and Kabasele could/should be moved on. That’s 12 which includes Pedro who becomes HG in Jan. And that’s even while assuming one of Sarr/Dennis stays.
     
    EB Hornet likes this.
  6. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    Updated with new GK

    Non-Home Grown (Rule of Eleven) (currently 19) - Home Grown (currently 14) Total - 33

    Maduka Okoye GK
    Vincent Angelini GK
    Pontus Dahlberg GK

    Daniel Bachmann GK
    Ben Hamer GK

    Kiko Femenia RWB
    Jeremy Ngakia RWB
    Joseph Hungbo RWB

    Hassane Kamara LWB
    Ken Sema LWB

    James Morris LWB

    Cristian Kabasele CB

    Francisco Sierralta CB
    Samir CB
    Craig Cathcart CB
    William Troost-Ekong CB
    Mattie Pollock CB

    Edo Kayembe MF
    Imran Louza MF
    Yaser Asprilla MF
    Tom Dele-Bashiru MF
    Dan Gosling MF
    Tom Cleverley MF
    Domingos Quina MF

    Vakoun Bayo FW
    Rey Manaj FW
    Emmanuel Dennis FW
    Dapo Mebude FW
    Joao Pedro FW
    Samuel Kalu FW
    Ismaila Sarr FW

    Kwadwo Baah FW
    Ashley Fletcher FW

    Possible Extras / Unknowns

    Pussetto
    Penaranda

    Manning
    Rose
    Andrews
    Forde
    Holding
    Mckiernan
    Adeyemo
    Blake

    Not even including Pussetto and Penaranda, we need to trim the non HG by 8 players. Angelini and Mebude could possibly move to the U'23's for the season meaning just 6. Pedro may also come out of this equation as turns HG in Jan so maybe just the 5 to go from here. Dahlberg must be a guaranteed departure now, if he wasn’t already.
     
  7. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    Shaping up real nice now.

    Well done Gino and Scott!
     
    RS2 likes this.
  8. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    That is some ****y midfield.
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  9. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Just thought Id add some stats to investigate a squad comparison between the 20/21 promotion team and the current squad.

    Below is the 20/21 squad sorted by minutes played (as per the column on the far right)....

    Screenshot 2022-07-19 at 22.12.59.png



    So the "average" team for that season by minutes played ( assuming a 433) formation was as follows...


    .............................Bachman/Foster.................................

    Kiko..................Troost.............Sierralta..............Massina

    .................................Hughes............................................
    .............Chalobah......................Cleverly.........................

    Sarr........................Pedro......................................Sema

    Its difficult to compare 20/21 and 22/23 teams precisely because of formation differences, but for ease of comparison lets assume we played a 433 this season rather than a 352 or 343...


    From that team sheet all those players are still here apart from Chalobah, Hughes, Massina and Foster.

    • Hughes has been replaced by Louza who I believe ( and that is just an opinion) is at least as good as Hughes and has a higher trajectory given his age of 23

    • Chalobah has been replaced by Kayembe. Chalobah has a higher pedigree but has failed to meet his potential. Kayembe we've only seen play in EPL and as a 23 year old has hopefully a higher trajectory than Chalobah at 27 years ( 25 when he played in the 20/21).

    • Massina has been replaced by Kamara. Many would see this as an improvement although we are yet to see Kamara show his attacking qualities but he looks to be a better defender than Massina.

    • Foster is a better keeper than our existing so perhaps that could be a step down, we are yet to see how Okoye will perform and to a certain extent Bachman will perform.

    • Cleverly is older but at 32 has to offer the same qualities ie work rate, tactical intelligence, decision making, as he did 2 years ago. 32 is not retirement age for a modern footballer. Especially one taking a step down in division.

    • But for every player like Cleverly who has gotten older/worse there are younger players who ve become more experienced ie Pedro, Sarr, Sierralta ( maybe)

    • Squad backup in 20/21 was...

    CB - Kabasele
    CB -Wilmot
    CB -Cathcart

    LB - Lazaar/Kiko
    RB - Ngakia

    CM - Garner
    CM - Sanchez
    CM - Gosling
    CM - Quina
    CM - Zinkernagel

    ST - Gray
    ST - Deeney
    ST - Success
    ST - Perica

    • Squad backup in 22/23 is ....

    CB - Kabasele
    CB - Cathcart
    CB - Pollock

    LB/WB - Sema/Morris/Kiko
    LB/WB - Ngakia

    CM - Dele-Bashiru
    CM - Gosling
    CM - Quina
    CM - Asprilla
    CM - Pedro ( as a no 10 )

    ST - Bayo
    ST - Manaj
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2022
    EB Hornet likes this.
  10. Leighton Buzzer

    Leighton Buzzer Reservist

    I struggle to get my head round all this "Home Grown" nonsense, I thought they were trying to kick racism out of football.
    Just wondering what reaction I would get if I started up a business and put a limit on the number of foreign employees I took on.
     
  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    It's an interesting team comparison, between 2 years ago and now. For me, it all hinges on whether we keep Sarr and Dennis. But, if we go by the assumption they won't be, then I think it's safe to say we're clearly weaker now than we were then.

    The goalkeeping is slightly weaker. I think Foster was much better than people give him credit for, and I see keeping as a weakness this season. Central defence is largely the same as before. Full backs is a 50% upgrade, with Kamara over Masina. Midfield is weaker now. Both Hughes and Chalobah would get in ahead of our starting choices this time around. Forwards, without Sarr and Dennis is much weaker than before.

    So, I think it's fair to say, with what we currently have, without Sarr and Dennis, we'll probably be around mid-table. However, with Sarr and Dennis plus a commanding midfielder to come in, then I believe we would get promoted for sure.
     
  12. Malteser2

    Malteser2 Reservist

    My take on it is that teams evolve over a season.

    There are always surprises. Sometimes good ones, in the sense of players exceeding expectations. Sometimes negative ones, in the sense of players we had hopes for only disappointing.

    So while it’s perfectly fair to assess where we are right now, it could be argued for better or worse that we won’t be in exactly the same place in three months time.

    Maybe the likes of Kayembe and Dele-B surprise us for the better and start establishing themselves as mainstays, despite the reservations many currently have about both. Maybe Gosling wins us a few matches like he did at Carrow Road, possibly off the bench. Maybe one of our two new strikers will surprise us. Maybe Pedro will discover his goal touch again. Maybe other squad members really benefit from our new coaches and formation.

    Maybe they won’t of course, but that’s half the fun finding out.
     
  13. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    Mee is joining Brentford on a free. Would have been perfect, but Mogi's not his agent.
     
  14. Is you ?
    A good signing and one we could be in for after we catch Brentford.
     
  15. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    I didn't finish my post. Would have been perfect for us if we hadn't ****ed up last season. If a player like him is willing to join a small club on the fringes of London, and one with a tiny ground ....
     
  16. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Dont think Dennis will be here but hopefully Sarr will. That would give us exactly the same front 3 as 20/21 but Pedro and Sarr more experienced. Perhaps in back up we would be weaker but who knows how Manaj and Bayo turnout. I have friends who watch Serie A avidly and were impresssed with Manaj and think he could be a good signing. As for Bayo, he comes from same league as Dennis, who Im sure was a signing that was slated by many on here just because his wiki page wasnt impressive. That turned out ok.

    Midfield we look a little light, but a high quality signing like Ben Watson was would redress that balance. Louza will go onto surpass Hughes as a player I believe. We also have some good young players who may go onto prove their worth. I m looking forward to Dele Bashiru playing.

    Defence is probably better in depth than 20/21.

    Goalkeeper spot has been weakened.
     
  17. YellowKicks

    YellowKicks Squad Player

    So much depends on Sarr and Dennis, and I think we'll learn a great deal tomorrow. Both seem like they won't force a move though, and it's great to see they are involved and training with the group, although Femenia started the Wycombe game despite the fact we knew he was leaving.

    Only Premier League clubs can afford, or would pay what we want, for Dennis and Sarr. Of the clubs linked/likely I think we'd only be looking at:

    Everton: Have been interested in both in past, however seem more focused on Cornet and can't afford the payment structure we'd want. I say unlikely now for now.
    Palace: Depth in those areas and can't see it.
    Forest: Like Everton, seem focused on Cornet but have asked about Dennis - a worry as they are spending big.
    Southampton: Don't spend much and just bought Mara, can't see it.
    West Ham: Were offered both, seem to much prefer Sarr. Have money to spend and still a major contender for both, with this Sarr's most likely option if he is to go. Seeing them offer for Kostic/Scamacca this morning is comforting if they've moved on for now.
    Newcastle: Still want a striker and right winger, and of course payment structure isn't an issue for them (although fees could be still). My biggest fear remains them trying to take both off us.

    Realistically if the four clubs in bold don't sign them, they will be here next year. In that case it would be some **** up to not get us promoted.
     
  18. Jon G

    Jon G Academy Graduate

    I have a genuine question, having read the forum for a couple of weeks now.
    How come all the older players are declining by the year but none of the younger players, dismissed as not good enough based on performances a couple of years ago, are improving at all?
    Do players hit 19, plateau, and then decline once they hit 29?
    I’m seeing Ngakia, TDB, Pollock, and even JP being classed as just not good enough, the implication being that they’re not going to get any better.
     
  19. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    Terrible coaching. Nobody has said JP is not good enough, just he isn't where he would be if he wasn't at a club ran by clowns.
     
    cyaninternetdog likes this.
  20. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    I'm not age-biased though, Dawson had a huge up-turn in fortunes when he escaped here too.
     
    cyaninternetdog likes this.
  21. RS2

    RS2 Squad Player

    I think people hoping Sarr and Dennis stay are in for a shock, them appearing in friendlies means absolutely nothing. It's Estupinan and Suarez all over again.
     
  22. Jon G

    Jon G Academy Graduate

    TDB and Pollock were out on loan.

    So I can sort of understand that young players cannot learn from experience unless they are coached to do so, but I don’t understand how that lack of coaching can affect players at other clubs.
     
  23. Jon G

    Jon G Academy Graduate

    But he’s old, so why did he not continue to decline?

    Of course, if a lack of coaching is the cause of stagnation/decline, then we can have hope that the new team, as potentially decent coaches, can halt the decline of the older players and improve the younger ones. So a glimmer of hope.
     
    cyaninternetdog likes this.
  24. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Dennis is certainly attracting interest which he and his agent will know about so you do wonder how motivated he will be come the end of August or if a club does make a serious offer .
     
  25. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    You'll have to ask somebody else because that has never been my position and would take Cassetti #2 by tomorrow morning. Crapcart & Co just weren't very good even at their peak, so should be long gone. For what it's worth Sissoko would have been a good signing in a back-to-the-future episode of Javi Gracia's team if he was told to not shoot under any circumstances.
     
  26. Jon G

    Jon G Academy Graduate

    Define “not very good”. What is the standard? Compared to Mo Salah they’re rubbish, compared to me they’re footballing geniuses. They have been a part of sides relegated to the Championship, but integral parts of sides promoted to the Premier League. Cathcart was in a defence that set a clean sheet record for the Championship. So I’d like to understand the median standard against which you judge these players as not very good “even at their peak” (which in Cleverley’s case was an England international playing for Man U, winning the Premier League).
    Thanks
     
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  27. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    Perhaps you should use your common sense to see the standard I am holding a professional footballer to, instead of a weak attempt to undermine the point by comparing a professional centre back with yourself or the best players in the world. But indeed, if Cathcart was playing 5–a-side against Hatfield Town I am sure he would have a stand out performance. He was also relegated with Blackpool, and most recently was in a side with the worst(?) clean sheet record in PL history.
     
    Chumlax, Jumbolina and RS2 like this.
  28. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    But of course, we already know role of 'the Pod' is to sneer at the fanbase outside of the inner sanctum as clueless imbeciles using strawmen and whataboutism, so I await the smug self-indulgent response eagerly.
     
    Jumbolina, Jon G and RS2 like this.
  29. Jon G

    Jon G Academy Graduate

    I sometimes engage with ant-vaxxers on Twitter. They make statements completely unsupported by any science. When I politely ask them to support or explain their statement, I get one of two responses. The first is that I should “do my research”, accompanied by a refusal to help me with that. The second is an instruction to “use my common sense”, with no indication of why their assertion should be considered “common sense”. I note what you say about Cathcart’s relegation with Blackpool, but I remind you that I was specifically querying your assertion that these players were not very good “at their peak”. I see that you didn’t engage with my specifically recited example of Cleverly.
     
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  30. Jon G

    Jon G Academy Graduate

    For the last time - I don’t have a f***ing pod! It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.
     
  31. RS2

    RS2 Squad Player

    Please Jon, that kind of language won't get you any new listeners.
     
    Steve Leo Beleck and Jon G like this.
  32. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Good to see Pod Jon using the old Cleverley has England caps argument, and in an especially hectoring way as a bonus. Thought people had given up using that one.
     
    RS2 likes this.
  33. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    You earlier used yourself as the standard to compare Cathcart's level as a professional footballer. It seems fair enough someone asked you to use common sense. Comparing that response given the context of what you posted to an anti-vaxxer is deeply strange.
     
    CarlosKickaballs likes this.
  34. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I don't think we should be ruling out other European clubs.
     
  35. Pozzo Out

    Pozzo Out Squad Player

    Or Fulham.

    They’ll make a late bid at the end of the window.
     

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