Rising Prices

You can’t get away with that. You’ve been attacking posters for two years as racists or whatever else creepy **** gets into your head.

@a19tgg describes you spot on.

 

They have local Labour councils and local, politically, Labour policing. And yes, it is a disgrace that more is not being done, but could we really hope for more if Leicester came under national Labour leadership? The idea is absurd. Identitarian politics says 'they are brown (both perpetrators and victims), brown people do this". The racism is blatant. If it was a case of the perpetrators being white, mixed race or black Britons, do you think there would be any hesitation in their righteous prosecution? I don't think a Labour police force combined with Labour local authorities could resist that.

Notice again, exploitation of the most vulnerable facilitated under left wing authority and policing.

Like I say. Lefties: 'who could have known it?' It is not happening where the right holds authority..

 

You are a ridiculous idiot. There is exploitation and modern slavery in car washes, food processing, farming and brothels right across the UK.

 

That was exactly the plan with Brexit. It was discussed widely when remainers said that we would have shortages of certain workers. Brexiteers said yes, and we can change our visa rules to compensate and allow them in where a need arose. They can take advantage of it, and we can deal with such shortages without forcing down the wages of every other sector where there is reasonable competition for jobs within the UK. I am glad people are starting to understand that the Government are not back-tracking on Brexit, but doing exactly what they said Brexit would allow us to do.

 

But not on the scale of what is reportedly going on in Leicester under Labour authority and policing.

Please quit with your insults. You have had enough threads and whole sections closed down already.

 

Sorry Happy, but the very argument being made by the Conservatives and Brexiteers is that conditions and pay for HGV drivers must improve, and we will get more people wanting to do the job.

If it wasn't for the allergic reaction to me pointing out that there was irony in Moose posting the excellent post by the driver, what I said could have been seen for what it was saying. The driver says they were treated badly, the entire Conservative/Brexiteer argument totally agrees with what he says, and says things must improve. Sorry if you see that as setting left against right; it just happens to be the truth, backed up by every Conservative and Brexiteer talking on the subject. Those commenting on the situation who are not of that persuasion appear to be saying the solution is to rejoin the EU, which arguably is what enabled the 'abuse' by employers (through access to cheap continental labour) that the driver was alluding to in his comments.

And my argument was not just simply left and right, which is why I differentiated between Conservatives and Brexiteers.

Brexit (a mixture of left and right wing): Recognises the issues raised by the driver and facilitates conditions that will remove the abuse identified by the driver, because the employers (who argued strongly against Brexit) will not be able to force wages down by using cheap EU labour.

Remainer (almost exclusively left wing): Believes we should rejoin the EU so that we can use cheap EU labour (to the absolute delight of big business and industry), which previously resulted in teh reduction of wages and conditions which the driver so eloquently discussed, as abusive, in the post Moose reproduced.

I am sorry if people think that pointing that out is just political shinanigins.

 

Sigh, the bloke who wrote the post even says how great it is to drive a lorry in France, can you read or did you just conveniently ignore that part?

Pressure on wages from cheaper labour from Eastern Europe makes up only a tiny part of his post, how do you suppose Brexit will help with has parking issues?

 

I think you should track back on the ridiculous things being written on here identified by a19 and how Hooter is on a massive wind up. And frankly not a pleasant one where he identifies Muslims and their relationship to the Labour Party a unique problem. There’s a word for that and the forum shouldn’t be tolerating it.

Like a19 says, he is the source of the issues here. The rest of us can debate sensibly for the most part. Is he going to get to trash yet another thread?

 

Sigh. He can still deliver to French and other European destinations. Were you of the belief that he was unable to do so?

As soon as the pressure on wages and conditions from Eastern Europe was removed, conditions and wages started improving. That is the fact of it. That pressure is what allowed him to be abused by his employers.

I think that is both parts of your arguments dealt with. Please let me know if I have missed anything.

 

Oh Moosey. Your post is full of exactly the casual unpleasantness you accuse me of, and is totally uninformed.

Please tell me where I brought Muslims into this, or do you assume that all people that the left refer to as 'brown', my comment being a reflection and criticism of leftist racial identitarianism, are Muslims.

For information, to my understanding, much of the modern slavery going on in Leicester is mixed Hindu/Muslim and is perpetrated by British Hindus, I say that because that is what has been reported. I have no idea what colour any of them are. Your racial assumptions are your own, and nothing to do with me mate. Carry on.

 

You know full well that wasn’t the point I was making, you’re just ignoring it and going down your usual road of reverse psychology, again, because it doesn’t suit your nonsensical argument.

The guy himself said it’s better to be a lorry driver in France, better conditions, they’re treated better, cheaper easier parking, respected by the public etc.

Why if it’s better to be a lorry driver in France, Will Brexit make it better to be a lorry driver in the U.K.?

What was stopping us making it as good to be a lorry driver in the U.K. as it is in France when we were in the EU? How are we going to resolve all his problems that are unique to the U.K. but not places like France? Why now and not before?

And again, if you read the article the guy says he wouldn’t go back to being a lorry driver for any amount of money.

 

The conditions under which UK drivers work is not down to the UK Government. It would seem very naive that any person might believe that were the case.

With respect to that fact, you are making a more pro Brexit argument than you realise, because the one thing that can (and indeed has, already) force UK employers to improve conditions, is Brexit, because it has removed their strongest negotiating chip - cheep labour.

The conditions in both France and the UK are down to the employers. Again, this is the point being made by pro Brexit MPs and commentators; that UK employers should now stop abusing their employees and start remunerating them properly. It is that blatant.

If the employers had any incentive to invest in lorry parks and if they wanted to treat drivers better, it is in their own power to do so; but they had a choice not to that which was enabled by access to cheep EU labour. The government cannot force UK lorry drivers to stand up for themselves against their employers. But under Brexit, the tide HAS changed. The very argument is that, starting with wages, things are starting to improve, and that the Conservatives and Brexiteers alike are calling for further improvements, whilst those against Brexit are calling for a return to the EU membership that forced them down originally. Everything the driver speaks of occurred under EU regulations on free movement, and, presuming that when he first engaged in driving, it seems is clear that his woes arose under EU regulation. There is little arguing around that.

Brexit may force UK employers to make lorry driving in the UK as pleasant an experience as it is in France. Rejoining the EU will mean a return to the circumstances that led to his problems.

It is not for me to imagine why France is a better place to drive than the UK, nor why of 27 states in Europe, he only mentioned France as being the case.

I do understand your argument. I have responded to your argument.

And I assume that if he would never go back to driving, no matter how much the conditions or pay improved, he is either a very petty minded remainer (who would cut off his nose to spite his face), or he has fallen out of his childhood love affair with lorry driving. Both seem a very fair assumption regarding a person with such a strong and resolute view.

 

I’ll bow out now Hooter, you’re basically saying we had to leave the EU to be able to make things as good as another EU country. An EU country who have the same access to the same cheap Labour that is apparently causing us the issues they don’t have.

(Oh and of course, you’re telling me I’m saying the opposite of what I’m trying to say and that I actually agree with you, classic)

It’s impossible to have a reasonable conversation with someone who holds that view.

 

No. I am saying that you do not understand that the argument you are making makes an opposing logical conclusion to the one you think it is making. That is a very common occurrance on here, and why people accuse me of reversing their meaning. In fact, it generally tends to be a case of people not understanding the logic of their argument, or thinking that it cannot be applied outside of the narrow scope they apply it.

It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation with someone who does not understand the logical conclusion of the words they use.

It is not, and never has been, the responsibility of the Government to dictate drivers conditions and wages. That is solely the responsibility of the employers under whatever pressure the employees can bring to bare.

The view you express absolutely relies on not looking further afield than France. For instance, your argument that we can have the same conditions as France because we are in the EU. Apply that argument to every other EU state, all 27 of them. Why don't they all have such great conditions? Your argument falls down immediately when applied across the board.

Given that French truck drivers are far more likely to go on strike, as they have been doing, and will aggresiverly picket and demonstrate, the answer to why they have better conditions is pretty obvious to anyone and a strong argument for Unionisation.

 

You completely contradict yourself in your penultimate paragraph, of course differing standards exist, that is the whole point. EU or no EU. Countries within the EU have different standards, as do countries outside of it. The conditions alluded to by the HGV driver all have no relevance to being in or out of the EU, however much you try to twist it that way.

France have access to the same cheap labour, do they or do they not??

 

They do, but it is not for me to guess why French employers have done what they have done; it is not an argument I am making, I cannont even vouch for the claim that conditions over there are so good, and I can only speculate that it is good Unions that are not afraid to strike that has got their members such an apparently good deal.

Can you explain why UK employers have chosen to provide poor conditions, lack of truck parking and reduced wages? Why the Government is now calling for them to improve conditions? And why, now we are out of the EU, things are starting to improve for UK drivers?

I have not contradicted myself. And you are simply arguing as if it is up to the Government to dictate what drivers are paid and their conditions, which is patently not within their remit. What changed after us leaving the EU that allowed UK drivers to successfully demand more money? Heck, they don't even have to demand it, employers are ready to throw it at them.

Try not to just say you are going to ignore me now, because that will make it obvious that, for all your attempts to rubbish my argument, you have no answer.

 

Happy with that. Doesn't mean I am not going to respond to what people say on the forum, and I imagine a19 will be relieved you have given him an excuse to avoid answering the questions I have asked him, despite me dealing with everyone he has asked me.

It is a shame that you, and perhaps Dom, do not criticise A19 or Moose when they start getting abusive, as they both have done in this thread, without any incitement from me, other than disagreeing with them, and without me responding, unless it is to throw their words back at them.

Once again I have had not-so-subtle accusations of racism thrown at me (wholly unwarranted and revealing my accusers usual lack of understanding of his own prejudices) and my intelligence brought into question, but you, Happy, and Dom, can only say that the conversation has gone on too long. It would be nice if you defended me from abuse, rather than defend A19 from a losing argument.

 

I’ve got the last couple of posts on ignore. Is there anything interesting in there? Thanks.

 

Couple of good recipe idea for how to make soup from onion skins and floor sweepings and a general agreement that the petrol situation isn’t a political issue and is nobody’s fault.

 

Thought I'd drop in and see what all the fuss was about.

I don't think that's what Hooter was saying. I may be wrong but I think his point is there was no reason why conditions for HGV drivers in the UK shouldn't have been equivalent to France and elsewhere whilst we were in the EU, except that UK haulage businesses chose instead to bring in cheap labour, and UK government either chose to turn a blind eye or it didn't even cross their mind there was a problem brewing. It wasn't being fixed.

If it did one thing, Brexit has forced haulage companies, councils, government etc to face up to their own behaviour. There isn't a cheap labour cop put anymore, it has to be fixed properly.

 

This.

 

This is great. Particularly given that, without me saying a negative, insulting or racist word to you, it is followed by these...

Ridiculous idiot. Imply I am an Islamophobe (whilst revealing your own perceptions of what a 'brown' person is - you are right, there is a word for what you are). On a massive wind up.

And then you say I am the source of the issues, without addressing or challenging a single point I have made.

Cut this rubbish out of your posts, and we can all have a reasonable conversation, unless, of course, you consider someone disagreeeing with you to be unreasonable.

 

Ah ha! The forum has left a present under the tree. Looking forward to catching up on this commotion on the train

 

I don't think it is as simple as that.

There is a tendency to point at Brexit and say that is the reason something is happening whether it is s positive or not.

However the haulage industry has been suffering shortages way before Brexit. And other reasons, such as Covid and Brexit have just exacerbated that.

The biggest complaint I've read from drivers, like the article linked to on here, is the driving conditions. They are asked to work longer and longer hours, there are electronic "spies" in the cab and facilities and public respect is a joke.

Haulage companies, the government and the public have just ignored it and now the recent events have accelerated the problem.

Of course pay is a factor but a chaotic sector based pay surge, especially in the supply chain, is not going to help the economy or the poor.

Inflation is likely to run rampant and it won't be the "good inflation" that indicates growth in demand the economy. It will be cost driven inflation that retailers, wholesalers and manufacturers will pass on to customers.

Those sectors that get above inflation pay rises will be fine. But what about the low paid, low skilled workers in retail, hospitality etc?

The haulage industry needed reform and made more attractive to a younger workforce but I don't think cutting off a supply of labour was a sensible way of achieving that.

 

Oh it's becoming clear this has been a problem festering away for years (makes you wonder what a Transport Minister does with his day...)

Was anyone going to take notice of it, or fix it, but for this particular perfect storm of events we have had?

 

I agree with most of that.

The source of labour that has been cut off, was mainly a cheap source of labour that was prepared to accept the low pay and conditions that facilitated and perpetuated the situation for a decade. It had to end. But as I have said earlier, it should have been scaled down over time rather than stopped relatively abruptly, or even with the warning and notice the hauliers have had (but seemed to have ignored for too long).

The problem is, today's twitterati doesn't allow grown-up politics to manifest. They demand everything "now!". and governments make bad decisions to compensate instead of being stronger and explaining their reasons fully. It is seen on here.as there are posters like GOBE childishly asking why we aren't millionaires yet, even though we have only had about 2 months of covid free time since we left the EU properly, and their fellow remainers (including yourself if I remember correctly) egging them on with likes, etc.

It is said that we get the government we deserve, well heaven help us if we get the government demanded by the twittersphere.

 

You don't need to be a transport minister to see that any potential shortage in labour will need to be replaced, you just have to be a transport manager. They are the closest to their own problems, are specifically employed to sort that potential problem out, and is probably paid much more than the Minister.

 

HGVs being unwelcome in towns and cities, nowhere to stop and park, nowhere to sleep, s****-hole truck stops with expensive food drivers can't afford and showers that don't work... a Transport Manager can't fix these

This has been a failure of successive governments going back years.... of course the neo-liberal politicians didn't care, they loved it, they promoted it; cheap labour, low costs, and high margins was what it was all about

 

And let’s face it, every Tory and every Blairite accepts this when they ramble on about efficiency and how pie in the sky the left’s ideas on wages are. That’s why it’s particularly hypocritical for Brexiteers who consistently voted for austerity to claim a victory out of this chaos.

 

I agree, but if the haulage businesses cannot provide good enough pay and conditions for their workers, then there is something seriously wrong with their business models. And BP made nearly £4bn profit in Quarter 1 of 2021. They've seen conditions slide over years which meant that local drivers were replaced by foreign drivers that accepted those conditions, whilst drivers got older and just left. They've been sleepwalking towards this disaster for years and now looking to shift the blame.

 

Agreed but, as ltc68 said, it is a perfect storm.

The government, over the last few decades, should have done more. They could have mandated that adequate facilities such as safe, free parking and rest areas were made available.

They could and should have seen the effect of IR35 on HGV drivers.

They could and should look at more help for vocational training as compared to academic education. It is a crazy system where someone can get an interest free loan, that they will probably never pay back, to get a worthless degree where an an aspiring HGV driver would need in the region of £4k to qualify. No loans, no grants and no subsidies.

Maybe there is an attempt to shift blame. But there is definitely a need to share the blame, identify the short, medium and long term solutions and implement them.

The government, haulage companies and the public all have a part to play in that.