Gino Pozzo Message

Can you quantify this?

 

Largely agree. You don't own a club for 10 years without making some mistakes both in terms of signings and PR, and we have certainly spent most of those years in a better position in the league than most of us had expected 10 years ago. I do believe many fans have unrealistic expectations of what a par performance for a club of our size/history looks like, reassessing "par" to be the average of the last 5 years performance (eg Charlton fans pleasure when Curbishley moved on as he was "incapable of taking them to the next level", ie europe). I'd have been happy with a comfortable championship position over the last 10 years enjoying the Abdi's, Vydra's etc before they were sold on to premier league sides. However I am concerned about the level of external debt we have accumulated and how that gets repaid if, as I expect, we are still in this league in 3 years time with vastly reduced income and our valuable players having moved on for lower fees than the hierarchy expected. A lean period now but I do believe they have been upper-quartile owners for our club based on relative success on the pitch.

I welcome the fact that they seem to be trying to be more communicative now, albeit it doesn't seem to come naturally.

 

I thought it had shrunk. Still too large but a lot of it is owed to Gino and Duxbury said he wouldn't ask for it back unless selling the club. Clearly we could be in a better situation financially but many clubs are in the same boat. I would like Gino to come out say things about the debt as don't trust Duxbury
The last 10 years have been pretty much the most successful spell in the clubs history and we all have our own views about how the club is run, how it should be run, the finances, signings, Hoggs loan etc but it has been a good 10 years even if we have been relegated twice. Yes you could say relegation could have been avoided with more astute signings (Sarr the most obvious one as a club like us should never be paying that kind of money for one player especially when the manager at the time didn't play a style suited to him) but every club that goes down point the fingers at owners, players and managers but for teams like us, Norwich and Burnley relegation was always inevitable and whenever it happened people on social media would have been laying in to the owners on why they made the decisions they did. On the flip side of that I do feel we make some very odd signings, contract extensions where I simply can't see how they benefit the club and clearly using somebody like Bayat with the allegations made against him is far from ideal.
From my point of view I would like Pozzo to stay but do feel as though Duxbury should be replaced and go and find an excellent DoF and also look at the academy
Finally, as mentioned by others, it would be nice for somebody like French to have the opportunity to sit down with Gino and have a proper interview rather that the short statement that came out yesterday

 

...favourite cheese...

 

I get the point, of course. I just don’t think it’s right. There are many worse owners than ours. There are many owners as good as ours. But there are very few who would be an upgrade, which seems to be the expectation of those wanting the Pozzos to move on. So, on balance of probability, we would not get what they expect.

 

28.5

 

Sadly we sold the cow for €2m as she was a Jersey and didn't count as homegrown.

 

Ummmm...fewer?

 

My main issue with the man isn't our performances on the pitch.

It's that, at the very least, we do extremely dodgy business with some very suspect individuals.

Base case for me is that it's extremely likely we're sitting on a ticking time bomb, and will suffer for it eventually.

 

There’s simply no basis to this argument. You can’t quote probabilities and then give zero evidence to back it up.

‘Many worse, many the same, but few better’ is hardly a cogent argument. Hence why I’ve asked you on another post to quantify your answers and you’ve not been able to.

 

But the poor quality of owners generally only crystallises at the point things go t*ts up? I doubt many Portsmouth fans were grumbling when they were winning the FA Cup and playing in Europe.

I don't think anyone on here would complain about the owners if we'd had the exact same level of performance but done so in a way that hadn't put the club into so much debt (remains to be seen whether they have adequately addressed this) and not had so many incidents that have damaged the club's reputation (court cases, forged letters, Mogi Bayat, firing coaches, lack of communication etc etc).

All that would be left would be some grumblings about contract extensions and transfer policy but they would be pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

 

Come on Burnsy, you can have a gut feel that there are many worse and few better without having to then back that up with %s and lists. I'm sure you believe there are many better and maybe few worse but that's your view and I respect it, just don't agree with it, in the same way that you don't agree with Jon G and myself. I would happily see the Pozzos sell to someone with deeper pockets on a promise to bankroll us into becoming an established prem side. It will be interesting to see who our next owner is, whenever that is. Unless they are truly minted I doubt we will be more successful on the pitch but accept that maybe comms could be better, no Bayat, more commitment to managers etc might be something to look forward to.

 

Exactly.

Thats why it makes me laugh when people like Jon come along eulogising about Gino whilst holding their nose (even if they don't know they are innocently doing it).

No one is denying the successes - but at what cost? And the 'But Portsmouth, but Bassini' angle is pretty poor to be honest.

 

And you can have a gut feel that there are better without having to name names. But that seems to be the defence of people like Jon G. If you can't name them, they must not exist! It's a bizarre logic. No one here could have named The Pozzos before they arrived.

As an aside, I'm not asking for anyone with deeper pockets. I'm not comfortable with the debt situation but I do accept its part of football these days. I'm asking for owners that don't surround themselves with extremely questionable people and practices which exacerbate the problems further. That can be Gino if he changes course IMO. I've always been very careful to never directly to call for Gino to sell-up....I'd like to seem him ditch those around him, and do easy things to show he's changing. Ditch dodgy hangers-on, speak more about tangible things and not just a 10-yearly soundbite. These, and many other things, are easy things to change. But for as long as he won't, then clouds will remain.

I just think whole 'careful what you wish for' angle is overused because it largely disregards the opposite opinion. Better arguments can be used to defend the Pozzo ownership etc than relentlessly bringing up Bassini, Portsmouth etc. Thats not a defence for this ownership, its whataboutism.

Lastly, you're either misquoted me or misunderstand me - I never said there were many better potential owners but only a few who could be worse. I know there are many on both sides of the coin.

 

Gorgonfrancozola

 

Depends how you quantify 'good.'

I guess, for some, 5 years of being in the Premier league as a staging post for foreign mercenaries and hoodwinked youngsters was a worthwhile prize.

For me, the fact that the club has zero soul, treats the fans with contempt, has a reputation for dodgy dealings etc. Means that the 'success' is quite empty for me.

I preferred seeing Millen and Hessenthaler bust a gut to bloody a few big Championship noses, because they were OUR players and they gave a ****. Not some player strategically moved here to shop window him before shuffling to Udinese or on loan to a Bayat club.

Our success is skin deep. Our identity and values as a club have been eroded. Them putting out puff pieces about GT doesn't change that.

 

Ok. So presumably you can quantify your opposing view. After all, if that’s the standard you require to demonstrate this point, you should be able to meet it. I look forward to your quantification.

 

I haven’t eulogised the Pozzos. They have their flaws as do all owners (Man City, Chelsea, anyone?) but they have brought levels of success I haven’t seen since I enjoyed GT’s glory years as a young man (me, not him). Being wary of the alternative does not mean one has to be blind to the flaws of the current situation.

 

Jon, you’re the one who rolled out the cliches about Bassini and Portsmouth. You’ve been asked to give detail considering you made a statement that ‘on the balance of probability, we wouldn’t get a better owner’. That’s a fairly big statement when you’re talking about probabilities - so how can you back it up?

I don’t need to quantify my view because I didn’t come on here saying we are likely to get a better owner. I just suggested it’s equally as possible as not - and given the amount of money that gets invested into football by various parties, it’s hard to deny.

Right now it appears you’re unable to back up your point as it was just wisecracks about a few poor owners and badly run clubs and that’s the basis for making a pretty wild claim. And rather than admit that, you think I have a duty to prove it for you!

 

That is a very fair point. Success is subjective.

For me a large part of the Pozzo’s legacy is not just the overall on-field success, it’s the upgraded training ground facilities, the Vic pitch, a four sided ground with stands named after GT and SEJ, the murals and the GT statue, the sensory room, the opening of the stadium to support the NHS in the pandemic, and the continuing community work.
From my perspective that carries significant weight compared to the qualities of the players used to get on-field success, but I absolutely acknowledge that others place different importance on different aspects of the club’s progress.

 

Ok. 7 clubs with good owners, 65 with average owners (including us), and 20 with diabolical owners. This doesn’t include consideration of moral issues (e.g. Saudi links to Newcastle) or attempts to destroy the current football structure (European Super League).

So a greater chance of getting worse than getting better, based on current form.

 

How have you separated the 7 from the 65? And the 65 from the 20? Who are the 7 and the 20?

 

Investment and success, both in growing the value of the club and pushing it up the table. The same standards applied to the average and poor owners. Those falling in the relevant categories are self-evident.

 

Then it shouldn't be hard for you to list them to have them agreed with or critiqued....

I will also add that it seems you have only drawn from current football club owners within the UK - there are many successful clubs throughout the world who are owned by 1st time owners. And others who aren't - like The Pozzo family themselves were when they arrived.

So are you reframing your original point and now saying there aren't many current English football club owners that you would swap the Pozzos for? Because thats a different point.

 

Man City, Liverpool, Newcastle, Brentford, Fulham, Forest Green, Accrington Stanley have very good owners for a start.

 

It’s simplistic to compare owners when they have blown their clubs up in the fullness of time with Pozzo where he is on the curve. Pozzo has only just had his premier league cash tap turned off. The debt remains and the playing squad is very poor. The full impact of his ownership is yet to play out.

If we are championship for next 3 years without any serious financial problems then I’ll agree with your point.

 

Or if we get promoted again, I presume?
I have no problem with your “time will tell” stance. I do with those who have already decided that the Pozzos are toxic and should go now, despite the positives they have brought, which I listed earlier in the thread (and at least some of which Elton alluded to last night).

 

The promoted one is a strange one, as I think that is what is needed to save us. So having a promotion at all costs strategy doesn't make them good owners in my view. However, it would also mean financial problems ease, so I guess I would have to agree they are good if that happens in next 3 years.

 

How much debt did he leave us in?

 

I see the usual binary nonsense is at play again, it’s amazing the criticism Newcastle have got because of their owners, yet being in the Premier League for a few seasons is deemed ‘success’ by many of our fans despite the related cost to our club of achieving that ‘success’. It’s deeply odd that the same fans who criticise Newcastle will happily give the Pozzos a pass and conveniently ignore what our club has become for this so called success. Has it ever occurred to them that some fans don’t equate success to league position, and that they don’t place league position ahead of absolutely everything else that makes up a football club? Who said we wanted richer owners? Nobody said anything about that did they? But as usual different has to be equated to richer, and then of course we have to be offered Bassini as the alternative. How about an owner with better morals? Or owners with greater respect for managers and players?

 

The point being the same fans who would criticise the way Newcastle have and will achieve success will happily turn a blind eye to how success is achieved at Watford. The cost of a few season of PL football is totally irrelevant to them as they measure success purely in terms of league position, and everything else is irrelevant to them.

 

Not sure, but of course the balancing question is what were the value of the assets he left us?