[LOANED OUT] Ashley Fletcher

Discussion in 'The Transfer List' started by Burnsy, Feb 24, 2022.

  1. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Everytime we win promotion to the prem (if it happens again) and are promptly relegated, the transfer windows will be branded "disgusting" etc on the basis that the owners should be able to assemble a prem quality squad on a shoestring with every £ well-spent. Unless someone bankrolls us, you are going to be permanently angry and upset with the quality of our signings.
     
    Knight GT likes this.
  2. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Completely agree. Personally think we've completely ****ed it by going into the season with Ekong/Cathcart as our starting CBs, and most of the signings we've made would have looked better recruits if they had an adequate defence behind them.

    Blame for that goes on Xisco/Ranieri, for me. As most of the forum said at the time, Louza looked a good piece of business, and should have been trusted to show the form he produced in France, even if he started slow.

    Personally think the blame for that goes on the shambles of replacing managers so regularly. If we had a bit of consistency, we'd have seen more value for money from the signings we've made.
     
    Knight GT and Happy bunny like this.
  3. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    And Cogs will say exactly this.
     
  4. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    What's a cog ?
     
  5. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Someone who supports Gino before the club and constantly defends bad decisions.
     
  6. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Damn, thought there might be a decent discussion without all this bo11ocks for once
     
    Knight GT and domthehornet like this.
  7. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    But surely you can only go with what is being shown in training/match prep? Ranieri was pretty clear that Louza wasn’t replicating anything that showed he was ready so I think you can blame the player as much as the coach in that instance.
     
  8. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Ah ok. Hadn't seen the acronym before.
    Tell me, is there something similar for someone who's permanently unhappy, constantly looks to criticise, expects perfect decision-making, and believes we should be comfortable mid-table if we had just bought "this player and that player" for the prices they were available for on transfermarkt ?
     
  9. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Oh come on - yes we have had some bad windows in previous seasons. But this season has cumulatively been far worse across both windows than those seasons. A few half-decent additions but on the whole, it’s been an unmitigated disaster in terms of balance, squad-building and filling key positions at the right time.

    You talk like Gino has just been unlucky this season. It’s madness.
     
    Jumbolina likes this.
  10. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    We all have and are entitled to our own opinions, and have different opinions which is fine. With Dennis, King, Sissoko, Etebo (pre injury), Louza (after a slow start), I'd give them a par 5/10 for the summer due to the failure of Tufan/Kucka and Rose. As I say I don't think it was going to be possible to replace all 10 that we'd have liked to replace. For winter I'd give them a 6/10 as Samir and Kamara look good, business done early, Kayembe a cheap punt but who knows. Not great but not terrible windows. Trouble is we needed 9/10 windows to be sure of surviving, tough with our finances and prospects and relegation clauses.
     
  11. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I’m not sure how anyone can give credit for the January signings when they were just addressing issues that weren’t properly addressed in the summer. It’s not like they’re adding quality, they’re just putting us where we should’ve been in the first place, but with it already being too late to save us.
     
  12. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Wouldn't be the first time a manager has made an error in judgement on selection, and personally I'm not giving much weight to Ranieri's decision making.
     
  13. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I give them credit for both "addressing issues" and "adding quality" in Jan. It would have been good to have signed them in the summer yes but 1/ there wasn't the time to bring in 10 new first XI players and Kamara was to replace Rose who I'd already marked down their summer activity for. Not every cheap signing will be a success. You'll argue I'm being too kind, I'll argue you're just looking for any reason to criticise. There's a reason that 2/3 promoted teams are generally relegated.
     
  14. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Yep. Clevs, Kiko and Cathcart would have gone toe to toe with the 5th place Chelsea team of Poyet, Desailly, Deschamps, Petrescu, LeBoeuf, Wise and Di Matteo.
     
  15. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    For a fair comparison I think you need to look at the Chelsea team that we played that season. Maybe 5th best at the time but the quality of football has moved on. You only need to look at the full version of some of the games that season.... the skill and fitness now is way above what it was then.

    Goalkeeper Ed de Goey
    Defender Albert Ferrer
    Defender Marcel Desailly
    Defender Jes Høgh
    Defender Graeme Le Saux
    Defender/Forward Chris Sutton
    Midfielder Gabriele Ambrosetti
    Midfielder Didier Deschamps
    Midfielder Bjarne Goldbaek
    Midfielder Jody Morris
    Forward Tore André Flo
     
  16. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    I realise it's not the point that's being made but of course the 99/00 team did actually beat that Chelsea team at home. I know, cos I was there.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  17. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Will look at the Chelsea squad for that season if it’s okay with you. The fact they gave some fringe players minutes against us isn’t representative of the strength of that team. In the return game they fielded Desailly, Poyet, Deschamps and Zola. If you think our current bunch of deadbeats that Pozzo has cobbled together would compete with that on level terms I don’t know what to say!
     
  18. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Their squad was great at that time but would struggle for fitness in the league today. Any 1999 squad would find it tough against squads with 2022 level fitness and possession. It's like the debate over how Best or Matthews, at their then fitness and skill level, would have fared against modern day defenders. Anyway it's a bit of a pointless debate I guess....
     
  19. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    That's because Easton, Kennedy and Gibbs are better than any of the **** we have now
     
    Keighley likes this.
  20. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    :rolleyes:
     
  21. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

  22. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    ....except that it wasn't THAT team, as 6 of those 7 named stars weren't playing then :)
     
  23. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    TuT poses the argument that it's all pointless. Watford are not a rich club, therefore hoping for anything other than 10th-15th in the Championship is pointless.

    Most of his posts are variations on this theme.
     
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  24. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I have been outraged by this debate. It was a perfectly acceptable Monday until this happened. I imagine in your view our midfield dynamos Kucka and Tufan and would have displaced Matthaus in the 1990 German team on account of their relentless fitness. Rose in for Brehme as well?
     
  25. LouOrns

    LouOrns First Year Pro

    Some of the debates on this forum are absolutely glorious I have to say
     
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  26. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Please put this in the Fletcher thread, not the “1990 powerhouses verses 2022 fatty deadbeats thread” :)
     
    wfcmoog and wfc4ever like this.
  27. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    ?? Of course you hope for better than that ?? I certainly do.
    I just find it amusing that 4 or 5 very negative posters who dominate pretty much all the threads these days seem to have the view that we should be a comfortably placed prem club if only we'd bought the right players and that any time we are involved in a relegation scrap, or spending time in the champ, can only be as a result of the poor performance of the owner. Words like"disgusting" "rotten" "toxic" are frequently used along with threads like "what is wrong with our fans". The only thing that's toxic is this forum. I've been asked by PM times by many posters who no longer post, but you may not notice by their absence, why I bother to engage the negativity club. Well I've tried to bring a little balance, not by saying that the owners are doing a brilliant job, but by stating my view that it's "not all bad" and hoping to have some light hearted banter along with way with a few objective debates/disagreements. But it seems that anyone who doesn't want to swim in this soup of despair is labelled as an idiot who blindly supports the owner.
     
    Sort of OK and Knight GT like this.
  28. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Ha - sorry.

    I remember the excuse at the time given by the media was that Chelsea had been away in a Champions league game during the week so the poor lads were tired.

    Wasn't Vialli manager?

    Probably should have take note before appointing him!?

    TBF We also only just lost 2-1 to them at Stamford Bridge.

    Also only lost twice by the odd goal to Arsenal.

    Liverpool we beat and just lost 3-2 as well.

    Drew with a good Newcastle side and lost by a goal up there.

    Our trouble was losing 5-0 to Wimbledon, 4-0 to Coventry and as this season losing at home to most mid table teams - West Ham, Boro, Everton, Sunderland.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
  29. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Eh ? Why would 2 of our reserves/fringe players have displaced Matthaus ?
    They're not German for a start :).
    Do you think the team that finished 5th 23 years ago is as good as the team that finishes 5th this season ? How about 40 years ago ? Don't you think that standards of skill, tactics and fitness improve over time ?
     
  30. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Cheeky to post this after the outrageous suggestion that Kucka is better than players who prance gloriously out of the mists of my childhood memories to be honest :)
     
  31. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    :D:cool:
    Point of order, Kucka has played 21 premier league games - he isn’t a fringe player. Yes I think things move on. However I think our worms would still a good hiding from mid table Spurs from that era. I honestly think our team from that season would give us a decent game, just based on heart and work rate alone. I blame the toxic, rotten, disgusting culture which Pozzo has cultured. :cool:

    Edit: had a go at some smileys to show I’m not toxic, but I have failed. Need a workshop with VOR.
     
  32. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Presumably Kiko, Cathcart etc. wouldn’t be as fit either if they played back then?
     
  33. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Presumably. But the debate was how the team now would compare with the team then and how much tougher it is to get into and stay in the prem now.
     
  34. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I post my perception of what is happening. If you find it toxic, then that's your view.

    My view of the rotten, toxic culture at the club goes beyond poor on pitch performance, as you well know. Building debt, a culture of ephemera in our managers and players, no connection with the club, lies from the CEO and silent contempt from the owner.

    That's why I use 99/00 for comparison. We were crap, but it was still our Watford. Our players weren't all good but they were all honest and gave their best. You can use the strawman that we expect comfortable mid table premier league football all you want, but I know that the majority of "negativity club" have issues beyond the on pitch abject failure of this team.

    If fans don't want to hold our owners to account for what they've done to our club, that's fine, but the hat of being a stooge for the owner fits pretty well in that case.
     
    Jumbolina likes this.
  35. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Somewhere between you guys and VoR there's a happy middle ground. Wait a minute, that's just where I sit :)
    Their work rate would have been great but skill, ball control, fitness (despite GT) would be worse. Diet and fitness monitoring is so much better today. I classed Kucka as reserve/fringe, maybe a bit disrespectful but I don't think he makes our First XI and indeed hasn't recently.
     

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